Chen style teacher "Chi does not exist"

[RAF]

Ken:

I think you place far too much faith in science, rationalism and its methodology (its my opinion of your take and we all know what opinions are like!).

Again, science has not "proven" in any sense, what the placebo effect is. Yet it is used as explanation for that which has not been explained. It's a catch-all with the faith that science will some day explain it.

I won't repeat my post, but there are many facets to the methodology (not method) of science. Qi doesn't have to be proven: it's framework only has to yield testable hypotheses that can be empirically validated.

I guess we don't read the literature the same way. Acupuncture which uses meridians and the concept of Qi as its framework, is emprically validated. Validation is not an either/or measurement . Validation is always a degree, a statistical degree and its acceptability threshold is arbitrarily chosen. Whether you accept a correlation coefficienct of .2 or .9 as evidence of validation is based on the subjective judgement of so-called experts, i.e. scientists. This also assumes a statistical normal distribution (which cannot be proved but only asserted).

There are also many rigid self-anointed saviours like Randi who believe it is their mission in life to save people from their own subjectivity. No different than the born-again saviours of Christ or most Western religions or Muslims for that matter. For many, "Science" and its proof has become the new religion of skeptics who refuse to accept the uncertainty and mystery of human existence. I guess we all chose our poison and go on.

The End of Science, (written by a former editor of the Scientific American, New York Times review. My copy is out) really lays out the idea that we have reached the limits of what science can explain for us. With that in mind, I guess all we can do is go on living life and enjoying the subjective experience much as what you are doing with Chen Xiao Wang.

But I have to be honest, when I started in baji/Chen's taiji and even the most "mystical" art of the East, ba gua, qi was seldom discussed and more attention was focused on alignment. The sensation of warm hands and back etc. associated with Qi is also associated with bloodflow and when I taught taiji through our continuing education, I always used a blood flow explanation for the sensations felt in taiji.

I always reserve a bit of skepticism too, especially when a taiji player tells me they can read my aura. There are limits!

[tomasz]

Hello,

Brian Kennedy wrote interesting article about Chi. you can find it on http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_kennedy_0201.htm
Brian Kennedy has trained in a variety of Chinese martial arts since 1976. In younger days he practiced Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut; more recently he has trained in Hsing I and Yi quan. By profession he is an attorney who has lived in Taiwan for about seven years, where he teaches and writes about various aspects of U.S. criminal justice.
I have never met him but i completly agree with his article
it is really worth to read

[greendragon]

Ken, you have misunderstood my comment. I agree Tai Chi is a martial art and i have used it successfully as such. My point is that there is a bigger picture. It did not take someone a lifetime of training to be able to defend one's self or effortlessly land a kickboxer on the floor. This is the beginner's level. There has got to be more than that. Advanced training is all about cultivating and learning to use chi for positive effects such as healing not just negative destructive action. There is a saying in Hsing-I : where the mind goes energy follows.!! But back to the martial side, in your Hsing-i punch, what are you extending to give penetration ? or is there no needle in your cotton ?

[count]

Just wanted to re-enter the discussion on a couple of minor points.

1. Welcome to the dark side tomasz Nice to see you on this board. (check out the info on the All baguazhang tournment in NY, it would cool to see you if you could come) That article was posted on the main board yesterday and it is a good read.

2. Ken, you make your point already, only you might be more persuasive if you would stop confusing jing and chi. Most of us know that the stuff the frauds are trying to demonstrate have nothing to do with martial arts at all. Why bother?

3. I keep hearing about all these "new age sissies" and I have never met one. Most of the people I know in the arts realize they are for fighting primarily. All the posters on this board seem to understand that. So where are these "chi huggers"? Is it true hippie girls like guys who do Tai Chi Chuan? If so, what's wrong with "new age tai chi" than? Seems like that could be of some benefit to a healthy, peaceful life.

[Water Dragon]

Count, if you e-mail me, I can give you a funny story of a very well respected teacher who was "reprimended" by one of his students for trying to teach Taiji as a martial art. It's a funny story, I just don't want to put the names out in public.

Does it really matter if Qi exists or not? From everything I've seen, if you train hard assuming there is no such thing as Chi, you get all the benefits and feelings associated with Qi. If you train with the idea of Qi, you pretty much end up with nothing. Qi may exist, but I train in the mindset that it does not as that seems to give me the biggest bang for my buck.

[count]

The student reprimended the teacher???

WaterDragon, you have my #@%@!**g e-mail or you can send it through my profile

[Brad]

In an earlier post on this board, someone (I believe Brad?) said that he thought the posts on my discussion board were hateful.

Daniel's post is the reason Internet chats devolve into hate-filled ranting and raving. Because people who can't express their ideas rationally, using solid evidence or reasoning skills to back up their claims, resort to terms like "small-minded twit."

I agree. I'd just read a post on your board saying "Buhdists worship a statue" and a few other short coments belittling people who practice religion(I know you didn't personally write them). It's possible to disagree with someone's ideas without making fun of them. Just because someone has a belief that hasn't been proven through western science doesn't automaticlly make them a fraud. I also want people to know that I'm not talking about Mooney. From hearing all the acounts of his behavior when confronted it seems that he knows he can't do what he claims, and is just trying to keep his scam/cult intact.

[Brad]

But I have to be honest, when I started in baji/Chen's taiji and even the most "mystical" art of the East, ba gua, qi was seldom discussed and more attention was focused on alignment. The sensation of warm hands and back etc. associated with Qi is also associated with bloodflow and when I taught taiji through our continuing education, I always used a blood flow explanation for the sensations felt in taiji.

It makes sense that with proper body allignment qi will flow naturaly whether you believe in it or not. If qi exists of course. My first coach didn't really believe in a mystical qi force flowing around the body, and he still had very good Taiji that he could use. I think you can get pretty far in your training by working the mechanics alone without even thinking about the word qi.

[Brad]

Ugh... I think I've got the flu... this sucks :-P
anyway, a bit off topic but...

Ken,
what kind of material is covered in the Chen Xiaowang seminars? He's defenitely one of my favorite martial artists to watch, and would love to attend one. Also how much does it cost?

[Liokault]

Daniel Madar

I think it is a shame, in some ways, that Dan Docherty has turned his back on his own lineage and seeks to promote it under the more commercially viable title of Wu Dang. I also find it interesting that the recently deceased Lineage Holder--contested, naturally-- of Dan's system was one of the most famous practitioners of the "empty force Dan frequently rails against.

What are you talking about?

1/ Chen Tin Hung--Dans teacher is still very much alive.

2/ Before he called it wudang he it was called wutan...same thing.

3/ Chen Tin Hung never was an advocate of emptey force.

Chen Tin Hung is the only lineage that Dan clams and that is far and away enough.

If you have any evidance that master (and he is the one man in the world I feel i should call master) Chen Tin Hung was ever an advocate of empty force I would very much like to hear it!!!!




By chance would you be another half arsed yang stylist?

[Brad]

The point, which you and Brad seem to have missed, is that debating the existence of qi is like debating the existence of god.

What are you talking about? I didn't an opinion about whether qi exists or not.

[greendragon]

I told my yoga teacher there was no such thing as prana and he kicked the yang half of my arse.

[Brad]

Sorry, I didn't even read your post that was being attacked. My point was just that name calling and making fun of people because of different beliefs(scientific or not) aint cool. I've allways felt debate was for education not trying to inflate your ego by tearing everyone else down. Just a general statement not directed at anyone I agree that "qi" cannot really be debated very well. The main problem being that lots of people will have completely different definitions for it. So under one defenition it may be perfectly real and natural, while under another completely rediculous. It's just a big fat headache. How can you say something exists or doesn't when you don't even know what it's supposed to be?

[Liokault]

Liokault, It was my understanding that Chen Tin Hung is a practitioner of the Southern Branch of the Wu Jien Quan family of taiji. It was further my understanding that Dan changed the name of the style to Wu Dang, for reasons known only to him. Though, currently, Wu Dang is a big name, I am aware that when he changed it, it was not as widely known.

It is indeed true that Chen Tin Hung was taught though the wu jien quan family line by his uncle but he spent much more time training with Qi Min-xuan who's tai chi was differant.

Also I belive that Chen Tin Hung never gave his tai chi a name and Dan decided that he needed a name to teach it in the UK.

(Not sure on the last bit but Chen Tin Hung deffinatly never gave his own tai chi a name)

[azwingchun]

First of all, I would like to say is that anyone who has paid attention too any of my post, I very seldom get involved in these type of discussions, for the fact that everyone is intitled to thier own belief system regardless of what it is. Secondly, this isn't to discredit anyone or to say that I am correct.

So, to start I would like to say that I am niether a Qi master (yet...LOL) nor a scientist. Which I can probably say is true to all/most on this board. And without being a master of both non of us can argue exactly the view points of both sides.

But anyway these are my viewpoints for what it matters.

As far as does Qi exist? Well, I would have to say yes. I have been studying the martial arts now for almost 29 years, and the existence of Qi is what drew me to the Chinese martial arts, since the discussion was very little or just vague in the karate style arts. Through the journey of martial arts I have not only been taught various ideas of Qi but have also experienced in one sense or another. Both for healing and/or fighting. I have seen miraculous things such as Chinese herbalist heal people who doctors couldn't do a thing for them. I have been healed of such things myself. But I refuse to get into a debate over such things, though I can give many personal experiences if needed.

Is it a placebo effect? Well, I am sure that there is always some sort of placebo effect in many things that we experience throughout life, I guess the basic term word be power of suggestion. I believe that power of suggestion is a very strong and powerfull thing. Though my questions to thoughs who subscribe to this are many. I wonder why when Chinese medicine or for that matter any other source outside of conventional medicine seems to work why is it always said to be the placebo effect? How come when I get a flu shot, then within a couple of weeks I seem to get the flu? How come the placebo effect didn't work then. Come on, I believed that the shot would prevent this. How come when people take vitamins on a daily basis they don't seem to be any healthier than someone who doesn't? Where is the placebo effect when you need it? How come when someone who doesn't buy into alternative medicine goes to doctor after doctor to get treated for an ailment and finds everything to fail, goes to an alternative treatment and then it works? Does the placebo effect only work out of desperation? Again, I am not hounding anyone, but these are very legit questions.

Next, I always here about how science has discredted this or that. Let's get real scientist can't always agree among themselves, so where is the exact science of science? Example, I recently saw a show on the pyramids of Egypt, there are scientist who can't agree on hold old this civilization is. And to be honest the dates given between these torn scientist are not even close to each other. One side says approx 4000 yeras the other say 10-15000 yeas. Well, it is my opinion that if science is so exact, what is the problem? You see this constantly in the Western Science community. There are scientist who have recently stated "hey, there is more to Qi then we thought" and then there are obviously those who don't believe. My next point I would like to bring out is those who believe in science I have a question for you. Do you believe in religion? If so, then in most cases you can't believe in science, mos scientist say the bible is false and that there is no such thing as an afterlife or soul. So, how can you believe in something which discredits your other beliefs? Do you pick and choose what you believe science says is correct to fit your life? Again, this isn't to insult anyone, just hopefully make you think. Scientist have admitted recently that with the technology that they have that they can't discover much more at least out side the realm of the 5 senses. This was a quote in a local newspaper. Hence, this is the problem with science, if it can't be detected with the 5 senses it doesn't exist.

As far as the name calling, well this isn't my cup of tea, I believe we all should be allowed to have our own belief system, it makes the wolrd that much more interesting. Wow, imagine a world where everyone thought exactly like each other. I believe this was called the "Nazi" way.

As far as being a sceptic, well to be honest I am the biggest sceptic that believe in everything from UFO,spirits,bigfoot, etc. I believe anything is possible. Though as many here, I like to see proof from the person who is telling the story. Though on the other hand being a martial artist, I will tell you a story about me. I have been breaking boards since I was a child later moved on to 2 inch bricks layed on top of each other( no spacers). But, i have come to a point in my life where I refuse to break things anymore. People ask me why do I train in soft palm and and/or iron fist if I don't break boards? I tell them it is for personal development. When I refuse to demonstrate, they are like many of you here, they go around telling people that I can't do what I preach. But, I have many people who have witnessed that I can do it and that is good enough for me. Because someone doesn't demonstate, doesn't always mean they can't do it. They may just have come to a very humble time in thier training.

With that said, I hope I haven't offended anyway.....peace.

Sorry for the book....LOL.