Chen style teacher "Chi does not exist"

[tomasz]

"1. Welcome to the dark side tomasz Nice to see you on this board. (check out the info on the All baguazhang tournment in NY, it would cool to see you if you could come) That article was posted on the main board yesterday and it is a good read."


Hi Count,
sorry but to go from beijing to NY and start in this competition i will spend a lot of money. this amount of money i can use to live and practice in China about half of year
i think that I prefer to be In CHina

[tomasz]

Originally posted by Daniel Madar
you can live in china for a half year on 600 bucks? ****. Thats cheaper than thailand.

Then again, I am not flying out from Tokyo either. But then the tournament is around when my son is due.

in China this ticket cost 900 bucks plus 150 tournament fee and minimum 100 bucks per day (you know hotel, food and entertainment) let see 1 week minimum this give me about 1800 bucks

[count]

Just extending a warm "KFO" welcome. In all seriousness, I didn't expect you to travel the thousands of miles and spend the thousands of dollars. I just think it would be fun. Think about it. NYC in the fall with nothing but bagua folks from around the world to play with. Anyway, we are planning a trip there within a year and maybe we'll get a chance to play than.

[tomasz]

Originally posted by count
Just extending a warm "KFO" welcome. In all seriousness, I didn't expect you to travel the thousands of miles and spend the thousands of dollars. I just think it would be fun. Think about it. NYC in the fall with nothing but bagua folks from around the world to play with. Anyway, we are planning a trip there within a year and maybe we'll get a chance to play than.

you know i think that it might be fun but i think i can learn much more staying here in Beijing
I don't need to see poeple around the world, some Beijing bagua experts are enough for me

[Walter Joyce]

Thank you TaiChiBob for mentioning the Heisenberg Experiments, and the rest of your post. That strain of thought has been running through my thinking every time I hear the arguments against qi (although I think of it as the uncertainty principle).

I won't add much more other than I am in the qi is real, not mystical camp of seasoned martial artists who do NOT FOLLOW the theory of li kong jing as a martial application, agee with the validity of emphasizing the martial aspect of any martial art one trains in, and sees the new age tai chi stereotype as a straw dog advanced by qi skeptics.

The ability to use qi martially is attained like any other skill in martial arts, through hard and long PHYSICAL and MENTAL practice of techniques learned from someone who can demonstrate the efficacy of said technique.
I promised I'd be brief.

Walter

[RAF]

Everything is kinda swirling around and there seem to be two or three themes:

#1The whole issue of ling kong jing and whether some guy Mooney can do his tricks (I don't care. Wasn't it Yang Lu Chan saying something about the only men he couldn't defeat had to be made of brass, steel, and ???).

From there it drops into an assertion about #2 whether or not qi exists.

Somewhere acupuncture (whose explanatory mechanism is based on the theory of Qi) is involved.

Acupuncture works on some diseases and not on others as does a lot of Western medicine (double blind studies have been used in acupuncture experiments as well as other designs, less powerful but nonetheless supporting). TCM and its herbs work in some diseases and not in others. I track some research going on at John Hopkins on Asthma and they are experimenting with old Chinese herb mixture to treat the inflammation from asthma and in lab animals, it has been shown to be as effective as inhaled steroids (double blind). People have been taking the medicine successfully in the East for centuries.

Below is an Western example of accepting a medicine that works (double blind studies) but not understanding or knowing its mechanism
________________________________________________
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...itroglycerin_1

Secrets of Heart Drug Used for Decades Revealed
Mon Jun 3, 5:32 PM ET
By Merritt McKinney

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Nitroglycerin has been used to relieve chest pain for more than a century, but researchers have just now discovered how the drug works. A team at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute at Duke University Medical Center in Durham, North Carolina, has discovered that an enzyme in the power plants of cells is the key to nitroglycerin's effects.


What's more, the scientists have found that long-term use of nitroglycerin slowly depletes the supply of this enzyme, which probably explains why people eventually develop a tolerance to the drug.

In an interview with Reuters Health, Dr. Jonathan S. Stamler, the lead investigator, explained that the cardiovascular benefits of nitroglycerin were discovered by chance more than 100 years ago when employees of the Swedish industrialist Alfred Nobel noticed that their chest pain diminished while working with nitroglycerin to produce dynamite. Since that time, the drug has been used to treat heart failure and a type of heart-related chest pain called angina (news - web sites).
__________________________________________________ __

Its explanatory mechanism is identified through the paradigm of Western science.

However, at some level, the molecular explanations breakdown since all particles have not been identified and even understood (subatomic. One day they got neutrinos measured another day they don't have it measured) and philosophical questions arise as to what is the nature of the universse and utlimately what is the nature of man. Few scientists venture this far and simply stop at the biochemical level and leave the rest to realm of physics.

On the other hand, Qi and TCM starts out with the big questions on the nature of the universe and man and then proceeds into medicine, exercise, world-view, life etc. Its assumptions are laid out and are easily subject to crtique and criticism. Whereas the metaphysical assumptions and methodolgy of science are not well articulated and debated initially because its outcomes and results have been so profound in curing and remedying many diseases. We tend to focus pragmatically on the method rather than the philosophy.

Regardless of whether you believe or don't believe in qi, there will come a point in your martial arts development where the mind will play a key role in reaching higher levels (you will have to dfferentiate whether this is psychosis {poor reality contact} or indeed a higher state of development and enlightenment. Even your "masters" won't be able to help. Your answer will have to come from the inside. In the tradition, the mind and qi will once again become an issue.

For those who believe in hardcore rationalism/materialism they will assert that the mind can ultimately be reduced to a biochemical/biomechanical explanation and so higher levels of TCM are perfectly explainable by Western scientific philosophy. Its unlikely this will ever be proven and so acceptance will be based on the historical success Western science has had with its approach. Hence faith, that is, faith in the methods of Western science will prevail as an unarticulated assumption. You know, the faith found in the article abvoe that rgorous science will often prevail.

Others will express a faith the TCM explanation. The mind and qi and breathing etc..

Either way time, sweat, mental and physical exertion will be required. You won't reach this level sitting around debating about the nature of the universe. Simply thinking won't make it happen. There is a mysticism in bagua that says when you reach the higher states you won't be able to express what you know and it won't matter whether you can express it or not because it won't matter what others think. You will know that you know and I guarantee you won't be posting on this board or any board (kinda tells you what level I am at),

The Randis and the Mooneys (different ends of the spectrum) of the world will entertain us and in between training sessions the debates will provide us with a bit of fun. However, you'll still be left with faith and mystery and condemned to having existence prior to essence (good old Sartre).

Screw the academics and let's get on with life and training. Have a couple of good meals, enjoy the time with your kungfu brothers, and train like hell. Hate to say it but Campbell was right: We don't search for meaning (thats how old academics lounging around in books and libraries, living out of their heads) we search for meaningful experiences (and that requires action, moving, seeing, touching etc.).

This has been great diversion but everyone has already made up their own minds (including mine) and underlying these postings is the old kids fight, "My dad is bigger than yours and he can beat your dad up!" We are just a little more sophisticated and clever in words but not actions.

Good Night!

PS: I do occasionally read the Skeptical Inquirer (go to Border's) and its take on TCM will surely get a rise out traditionalists. Give it shot!

[looking_up]

Amen, RAF. And that's a secular amen with just plain good body
mechanics...

[Nexus]

You will know that you know and I guarantee you won't be posting on this board or any board (kinda tells you what level I am at),

RAF,

Are you so sure that statement is the truth? If you would not be posting on this board as a subject of having reached a higher level in bagua, then how could anyone who has reached that level in bagua tell you that you would be unable to post on this board?

Let's use an example: At the higher levels of fishing, a fisherman cannot post on a fishing message board. However we somehow know this to be the case, because a fisherman told us? How can the fishermen tell us in person this to be true, if he himself is unable to do so according to the way we think a higher level fisherman's abilities consist of?

[RAF]

Nexus:

My rule of thumb is not to deal with mysticism on an intellectual level and I slipped. In my book, mysticism is to be experienced, not intellectually diced up for serving and I think the author of that translated piece was saying it as plain as day.

I dunno know. What's the purpose of posting other than to serve the ego (mine included)?

Or arguing about the existence or non-existence of Qi?

Ahhhhhh, forget it Nexus. I need to follow my own advice. I have fallen upon my own da qiang.

Later!!!!

PS. The part about myself. Poking fun at what I wrote. Sometimes it can really get piled high and deep.

[Nexus]

Mysticism can only be experienced if you intellectualize it as mysticism. Consider that.

The purpose to posting other than to serve the ego mind is that there is no purpose.

[KenGullette]

__________________________
Regardless of whether you believe or don't believe in qi, there will come a point in your martial arts development where the mind will play a key role in reaching higher levels (you will have to dfferentiate whether this is psychosis {poor reality contact} or indeed a higher state of development and enlightenment. Even your "masters" won't be able to help. Your answer will have to come from the inside. In the tradition, the mind and qi will once again become an issue.
____________________

Well, I believe your mind plays a role in all levels. As you get into higher levels (highly skilled at push hands, for example) the mind and body work together like a good wrestler who can feel the energy of his opponent and quickly take advantage of openings. A beginning wrestler isn't able to do this.

There is a great leap of faith when you equate the use of the mind, the reflexes, the ability to read your opponent -- and then say that it is "chi" that enables you to do this.

High skill in tai chi and martial arts is all about physical practice, just as in any physical endeavor. Chi should be used as a concept to help you develop proper body mechanics, not as scientific fact.

One man's opinion, but a darn good one.

[Nexus]

The very same mind which we attribute great t'ai chi to, is the very same mind that we attribute poor t'ai chi to.

[Walter Joyce]

"High skill in tai chi and martial arts is all about physical practice, just as in any physical endeavor. Chi should be used as a concept to help you develop proper body mechanics, not as scientific fact."

First, as I understand it when one is seeking high levels of martial efficacy through tai chi, the qi must be transformed into jing.

Second at the heart of tai chi is peng jing. It can be explained on a biomechanical level.

For support to this proposition I offer the following link. Read through it and ponder if you want to get anything from it. Somethings need to be digested before we can derive any benefit from them.

http://www.neijia.com/media/pengfaq.html

Lastly, it really doesn't matter to me how others choose to practice, or the terms they choose to describe their practice. If you want to call it tai ji, however, you may want to defer to the people who have devoted their lives to the practice. Unless of course you think your opinion on the matter is worth more than theirs.
Good training,
Walter

[KenGullette]

Walter wrote:
Second at the heart of tai chi is peng jing. It can be explained on a biomechanical level.
_____________________________

But Walter, peng jing isn't a real "thing." Peng jing is not an actual form of energy.

Peng jing results from proper body alignment and mechanics -- and lots of practice in being able to maintain it, sense the same thing in your opponent and manipulate it.

Peng jing is a concept. If your body alignment and structure is correct you'll have it. If you practice silk-reeling correctly you'll have it -- then you can put it into the form -- eventually you'll be able to use it in push hands.

Golfers use proper body alignment to hit a perfect drive. They don't call that particular body alignment and the power it creates "drive jing." But I suppose they could if they wanted. Then, golfers a hundred years from now would be arguing over whether "drive jing" was an actual energy present in the body or not.

A baseball player needs good body alignment to hit a home run. They don't say "he has good tater jing." But they could. Is tater jing a real form of energy?

There is no actual energy called "chi" that results in "peng jing" if you use it properly. Proper body mechanics will do the job, and lots of practice.

[Nexus]

Chi does exist in t'ai chi, so does jing, and both can be used to manipulate the t'ai chi.

Chi does not exist in t'ai chi, and neither does jing, and neither needs to be used to manipulate the t'ai chi.

To eliminate one of from being true, we must also eliminate the other. If we are to say that oranges do not exist, we must also say that they do exist for us to talk of their 'non existence'.