The impracticality of chinese kung fu

[Merryprankster]

Mister Hansome, I don't know and I don't care.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

You measure competancy in MMA by records and the quality of opponent they've fought, not by "so and so said he was good."

Show me a TCMA guy with a good ringfighting record against quality opposition and I'll show you a good fighter.

So in answer, to reiterate--beats the hell out of me. Ask beautifulvaley. He's a Tai Chi guy who kicks ass and lays it on the line. I couldn't tell you if somebody's CMA is good or not.

[Braden]

Oh, I see what happened now.

When I asked 'An excuse for what?', I wasn't questioning the validity of how you read between the lines to assume the formulation of the argument, as you described in your reply. I was right with you on that one.

I meant specifically and only, 'An excuse for what?' In elaboration, I was asking: what undesirable phenomenon/behavior is being dismissed without logically exclusionary argument by the statement you commented upon? It's that bolded part that is the 'what' in my question.

I apologize for whatever past posts I have made that have offended you.

"Never mind. Just insert 'Or aren't really doing kung fu,' with appropriate grammar as needed in the last part of my post"

If you mean the argument that "anyone in the ring can't be doing kungfu" is invalidated, you're of course quite right; but that argument doesn't really need invalidation since it's utter nonsense at face.

If you mean that "the specific cases of a few individuals are such that they don't happen to be doing kungfu" is invalidated, then I don't understand your logic.

[Mister Hansome]

Hey merryprankster, i was kind of asking bbjisthebest. It was kind of to counter his point on how he always see a BBJ beat a KF fighter. Which he says proves that BBJ is better then the rest, but as i said DOES NOT because so many other factors jump in that it really doesn't matter which style wins, but what matters is the sheer skill of the opponents and how well they actually grasp the principles of the art they so choose. I don't expect a fight with two 2 yr trained amateurs to determined superiority, but bjjisthebest seems to think so...

[Merryprankster]

Braden, you've NEVER offended me. You've done only one of two things:

1. Outargued me (**** you).
2. Or we get to arguing about definitions. I love semantics because if we don't define things then there is no point in talking about them. However, I think you love them even more than me

Actually, that's just an extension of number one. Sometimes I might sound smarter than I am but with you, I relearn how to verbally shuck and jive because you make me squirm like a 5 yr old with my hand in the cookie jar. You're one of the guys I want to meet from this board, personally. It's like an arch-nemisis I enjoy inviting over for tea...

Mister Hansome--all I can say is that trolls love to be fed I happen to personally believe that hard training leads to success whether CMA or something else. Good training is good training and transcends stylistic boundaries.

[Merryprankster]

Braden--specifically what I mean is that they:

Could be doing Kung Fu and just suck--but that's a reflection on the training/person and not the style.

Might not be doing Kung Fu but something else and claiming Kung Fu in which case the result has no bearing on Kung Fu other than to boobs like BJJISTHEBEST. I mean, I hardly consider a guy like David Levicki to be a WC representative after 1.5 years of inconsistent training so a beatdown administered to him doesn't mean much as a reflection on WC as a whole.

[Mister Hansome]

No more cookies for you troll...

*pets the ugly thing*

[Braden]

Ok, I apologize for apologizing then! I just came from reading MA Fanatic's complaints... I get kind of confused when people claim I obfuscate my meaning and theirs, as I make a pointed effort to be painfully clear on both accounts. I think I must do an awful job.

"Could be doing Kung Fu and just suck...Might not be doing Kung Fu but something else..."

From what I've seen, basically everyone involved in these discussions say very silly things.

Here's what I know:

1. The CMAers MMA/BJJers usually point to as UFC competitors are generally honestly, really not legitimate CMAers.

2. CMAers have been competing successfully in the ring since long before any of us were born, and will continue to do so until long after any of us die.

Here's what I believe:

1. No one is under any obligation, by any standard, to prove what they do to anyone else.

2. What someone else does, regardless of where, how, and who they are, is no proof of what you do, regardless of what it may be.

People can make of all this whatever they want, and I'm sure they will. As far as I'm concerned though, the above pretty much covers anything constructive anyone can say in these conversations.

[Merryprankster]

Basically, I agree with you.

Especially with the nobody has to prove anything bit. If I quit competing right now, it doesn't mean I suck

[SifuAbel]

Third hand knowledge is bad enough; but third hand knowledge seen on TV is even worse. Its interesting how people make opinions on a fighting system they only know vaguely about from a contest that doesn't even include it in the venue. Kung fu is about 400 styles, which one exactly are you all talking about?

Why is it that opinions here are mostly based on the supposed outcome between average joe player from one system against the best of another?

I find it amusing how so many people will hide in the shadow of their favorite hero instead of putting themselves in front. Its always ,"How long would you last against so and so(place hero here)?" Instead of, "How long would you last against me(average joe)." Some actually do(not to take away from those that walk the walk), but many don't because they know that in truth they might get creamed by (God forbid) a "traditionalist"(whatever the heck that means this week).
The thought is not as applealing when its you in the postion and not some far away champion. When the question is on you it feels a lot different. "Can I(average joe) beat him?" You, alone, no heros, no super champion fighters, you.

Until someboby can come up and say "I fought the best from such and such system" or "I've toured every TCMA school in america." Can any real judgement be made about it.

These people in the ring are apart and detached from our daily lives. We are anonymous faces in a crowd as important as the guy in the 57th row at a U2 concert. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

[Braden]

Anyway, I honestly didn't want to get in an argument.

The only reason I chimed in was because, that it's used as a whiney 'excuse' doesn't make it untrue: Most of the CMA guys in the "cultural meme" of MMA/BJJ aren't actually CMA guys. I dunno what to say... it sucks, conclude from it what you will, but it's a verifiable fact.

Look at these guys, for example: www.pakua.org . They don't do bagua. This is like what has happened for much of what MMA/BJJ guys call CMA. This isn't like when people criticise Shooter's taiji - which is a claim regarding perception and skill.

[NeedsPractice]

There is one simple solution to this never ending problem.
Every BJJ'er, MMA'er (or JKD person if they feel to) should visit as many kung fu schools in thier area as possible, and ask to do light contact fighting with students of thier own experience level to test there skills against whatever cma they come across.
From this they will learn that some people they can beat the crap out of because they practice enough, and some people who know what they are doing will beat the crap out of them.
On the principles of the system one type of fighting whether it be japanese, chinese or whatever may sound better or paper than the next, but it is always the individual who makes the difference.
1- Who had the better teacher?
2- Who trained harder?
3- Who had more natural ability (athleticism)?

Personally I dont care if 99.995% of fights supposedly end on the ground. 100% start out standing or sitting, and my goal in life is not to wrestle people on concrete or broken glass.
1-Yes you do need to test your skills against various styles to keep you grounded in reality.
2- The person who makes the fight go towards his strengths usually will win.
3- Lets say the UFC stopped all groundfighting or bjj, the most efficient striking and kicking arts would come out on top. Would that make those arts better than bjj? You dont see bjj guys winiing kickboxing championchips does that mean kickboxers are the best fighters in the world?
BJJ guys are just fighting in a venue that tends to work towards thier strengths.


Just my opinions.

[Merryprankster]

NeedsPractice--a few points:

It's my goal not to roll around on concrete and broken glass as well. I don't have to stay there if I don't want to. I'm far better equipped than most non-groundfighting experienced persons to dictate the range of the fight.

Light contact is pointless. Full contact is the only way to demonstrate it for the simple reason that as long as contact is light, the excuses roll off the tongue. I can't tell you how many times I've sparred with somebody and got "yeah, well, I would have stopped you with 'x technique', if we'd been going full contact " Never mind that the technique was thrown with no power because the guy was completely offbalance--and then there's still no guarantee that a flush blow will knock the guy out. Some people are tough that way.

Lastly, an MMA ringfight isn't set up for grapplers to win. This rules bias in favor of grapplers argument is getting massively old. The truth is that of the legal venues, MMA ringfights provide the most liberal set of rules available. Of course a wrestler isn't going to win a kickboxing match. A kickboxer isn't going to win a wrestling match. But when I make a venue that allows BOTH competitors to use all or the vast majority of their tools, then we can get a better idea of which person is the better fighter, overall. That's the idea behind MMA venues--give the fighters as wide a range of latitude as possible in their choice of techniques and fight strategy and see what happens. It might be the boxer type with good takedown defenses (Vitor Belfort) or the wrestler who has heavy hands on the ground (Mark Coleman) or the kickboxer with good ground escapes (Mo Smith) etc. It's hardly a venue in which only certain things are successful.

[MA fanatic]

NO ART IS PERFECT OR COMPLETE. Even the most complete arts were created by individuals who were inovators, and had something many bjj and kung fu guys (master or none masters alike) lack. They were able to know their weakness and willing to search for answers instead of fooling themselves into believing that what they know, their art, will solve every combat riddle.
Bruce Lee knew this.

Braden: You should be an attorney. I was wrong to get angry before about you "playing with somantics." I now realize that you may in fact be genuinely into somantics and clarification. I'm sorry if I acted hostile toward you on other threads.

As of this BJJ guy, if bjj was so complete, why do so many top bjj fighters cross train in other arts (of course most other artists who want to compete in NHB events cross train in grappling).

AS FOR KUNG FU MASTERS WHO FOUGHT IN NHB: That is true, there were no masters who the Kung Fu community would now admit to being masters. Just now in a recent Gladiator Challenge two Kung Fu guys lost. One guy claimed to have extensive experience in Wing Chun. He was beaten to a pulp by a local Muay Thai kick boxer. You can purchase this video for 10 bucks in any West Coast Video store. He made feeble attempts at everything from trapping to utilizing the straight blast. Result of a KO and a kick to the head which knocked his mouth guard across the ring. The second Kung Fu guy was a school owner (who knows if claims to be a master?). He claimed his style of Chinese Kempo. That guy lost in 21 seconds to someone with limmited college wrestling experience. As for as I'm concerned, any so called Kung Fu master could step into the ring and set the record straight as to the credibility of his art. They wont because they can't. Those who tried so far, failed. John March, a brown belt in BJJ under Carlos "Caique" Allias fought a Kung Fu master recently who claimed he had the answer to bjj. I believe he also tried eye gouging. Well, John March man handled this Kung Fu master, or so he claimed to be before the fight began (and John was not even a black belt). William Cheung, a GRANDMASTER (can't get highter than that) of Wing Chun (and hightest authority on the art), was taken down with ease by someone who was a mediocre grappler at best. So there you have it. There are more local fighters from Kung Fu schools who enter and fight local fighers from bjj and muay thai schools. They lose, but than again, they're no masters (but then neither are the bjj guys they fight).

So you tell me when you actually saw a Kung Fu master fight? Who did he fight? When did the fight take place and where? Ask your teachers if he or she ever used their art or saw their teachers use the art? You'll most likely hear stories of ancient warriors, old masters who have killed using kung fu (with no specifics of course), and some martial arts urban legends.
MA fanatic

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by BJJISTHEBEST
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But i bet all you kung fu practicioners and your mothers are deceptible to double leg take downs.
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Funny I have a friend who went into bjj with a highschool wrestling background and he was commenting on how bjj people don't know take downs and they were trying to learn take downs from him.

You may be good on the ground but in stand up I'll slap you silly. Even if I took bjj I would pummel you both on the ground and stand up.

Listen here gijoke. I don't care if you know blowjobjitsu or not 'cause I can whip whip your sorry butt with any style if I wanted to but I'm sticking with kung fu becaue that's what I'm comfortable with. Do you think you're going to change my mind by coming into our place where we share our ideas and insult us? You're living in a dream land and you're just as immature as my 13 yr old brother.

I don't don't do the ground game because that's not my thing .

I don't do muay thai because it doesn't appeal to me.

I don't do mma or jkd because I like traditional arts .

I don't jab,cross, hook-- I hook (mantis claw), grapple, pluck


I have used my kung fu againts boxing and wrestling and it has worked.

I have found my style to be useful to me

I like my style and I'm sticking with it wether you like it or not.

Did you get that,mmkay? If your ego is hurt that I'm not playing your game then deal with it and leave us alone. Instead of throwing insults you should spend your time practicing and doing something constructive.

It's the figher and not the art.

[NorthernMantis]

He claimed his style of Chinese Kempo

Chinese kempo is not kung fu.

The word kenpo is Japanese.