San Da Foundations

[WinterPalm]

I've been thinking lately about San Da/San Shou and the way it is trained by various people and how it differs in execution.

There seems to be a basic split between part time san shou, offered as an aside to a kung fu program, and then full time san shou that is offered as the entire curriculum of a school.

As there will be many differences between say CLF san shou and hung gar san shou, what basic foundations do schools with no TCMA background have?
As the methodology is punching, kicking, clinching, and takedowns...does this mean you basically have a western boxing or thai boxing foundation or a judo foundation as I've seen examples of on the net?

Are there strictly San Da methodologies and approaches to fighting that exist outside of theoretical limits of boxing, kickboxing, hung gar, clf, etc? Is the expression truly standardized? Does this occur at the higher levels where more elite competition occurs?

The reason I ask this is I train with several different kung fu stylists in a san shou format and we all are bound by the same rules but fight within those rules differently.

[lkfmdc]

The term "san shou" originates in TCMA as an expression of the application of techniques. Thus, any TCMA school can say they do San Shou, they aren't really technically wrong

However, the san shou/san da program that was started in the military has at its core something more. In a traditional school, the "applications" can be just learning what something is supposed to be. In the san da program as done in the military everything has to be tested. The "alive" quality, the sparring, the pressure testing, the doing of competition to test it, all make for a very different feeling.

There was never one, standardized, inclusive San Da program/curriculum/style but everyone's san da had to work in a fight, in sparring, in a competition. IE a san da coach in Guangdong may have a different kick catch and takedown method than one in Shandong, but both catches and takedowns you could see live in sparring and compeition.

IN regards to supposedly non-CMA doing san da, I'll re-state something I have said in the past. Beginners get caught up in how different styles and systems are. White Eyebrow is different than long fist. CMA is different than karate. Karate is different than Judo, etc etc

If you embrace the idea of being alive, of pressure testing, and of looking for what works, you start to see that PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS are what is important, and they are universal

[Ravenshaw]

IN regards to supposedly non-CMA doing san da, I'll re-state something I have said in the past. Beginners get caught up in how different styles and systems are. White Eyebrow is different than long fist. CMA is different than karate. Karate is different than Judo, etc etc

If you embrace the idea of being alive, of pressure testing, and of looking for what works, you start to see that PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS are what is important, and they are universal

Thank you for typing this.

The "that's not traditional" crowd is starting to drive me away from TMA in disgust.

[WinterPalm]

Would you say that if two groups produce successful fighters, it is not necessary that they execute the same techniques based on the same methodologies? Basically many answers to the same problems as long as they work?

It seems to me that something like this doesn't do away with traditional systems but rather refines and retains the components best suited to combat while adding additional elements that may be lacking or supporting.

I wonder if this is how styles originally came about? Basically competition or dueling or whatever, and then practicing new stuff to outdo the enemy, codifying it and passing it on.

[monji112000]

Thank you for typing this.

The "that's not traditional" crowd is starting to drive me away from TMA in disgust.

well I'm not going to promote Dave, he does a great job on product alone. The fact is allot of people are scared. They see any change, anything that doesn't fit in the box the created as wrong. Any style that says they "fight" should have people doing this sport. I'm not saying everyone should become a fighter, but for people who train at that level it should be a goal.

The fact is that everyone punches, kicks, clinches, throws/sweeps.

Its a basic set of rules to practice your techniques. I tend to stay away from people who say things like thats not "traditional". I'm a 100% traditionalist.. but I don't consider myself at a level to tell others whats "traditional" or correct. I find you learn allot about your own style, when you open your mind.

[Oso]

Would you say that if two groups produce successful fighters, it is not necessary that they execute the same techniques based on the same methodologies? Basically many answers to the same problems as long as they work?

It seems to me that something like this doesn't do away with traditional systems but rather refines and retains the components best suited to combat while adding additional elements that may be lacking or supporting.

I wonder if this is how styles originally came about? Basically competition or dueling or whatever, and then practicing new stuff to outdo the enemy, codifying it and passing it on.

I know you addressed this to Ross but I'll give my .02:

I think that you'll find, if you really look at it, that there aren't really that many different answers. A lot of people want to add some twist that is usually irrelevent to the effectiveness of something and call it different. And, a lot of people do this to the point of making something effective, less effective.

IMHO, i'm not so sure this is that new a thing. I think it's probably been going on in TMA of all types for a while now...a while being a 100-200 years.

I can't remember the quote or from whence it came but I remember some 'macro' description of a machine or 'engine' and the phases any 'thing' will usually go through: from the beginnings of the idea as something simple that works to something complex that works better but has a lot of waste energy and finally something that is simple again...maybe it's some law of conservation of energy or something, I can't remember. Maybe you get what I'm after and someone will know it to point to it for me.

anywho...martial arts in general has been around long enough to have gone through phase 1 and phase 2 and I will offer, for your consideration, that it is time for it to get on to phase 3. (and it probably is on it's way now).

[bakxierboxer]

I know you addressed this to Ross but I'll give my .02:

{{!!!SNIP!!!}}

I can't remember the quote or from whence it came but I remember some 'macro' description of a machine or 'engine' and the phases any 'thing' will usually go through:
(1) from the beginnings of the idea as something simple that works
(2) to something complex that works better but has a lot of waste energy
(3) finally something that is simple again...

maybe it's some law of conservation of energy or something, I can't remember. Maybe you get what I'm after and someone will know it to point to it for me.

{{!!!SNIP!!!}}

That sounds altogether too much like "The Peter Principle"..... which actually tends to STOP well short of (3).....

http://www.answers.com/The+Peter+Pri...hnology&gwp=16
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

""The Generalized Peter Principle." It was observed by Dr. William R. Corcoran in his work on Corrective Action Programs at nuclear power plants. He observed it applied to hardware, e.g., vacuum cleaners as aspirators, and administrative devices such as the "Safety Evaluations" used for managing change. There is much temptation to use what has worked before, even when it may exceed its effective scope."

[Oso]

naw, I don't think so...the Peter Principle seems to me to be more social in nature versus pure mechanics, which is what I was after describing.

not that what's happened to TMA isn't because of social dynamics within the population of martial artists but the changes i'm thinking about are purely mechanical in nature.

[bakxierboxer]

naw, I don't think so...the Peter Principle seems to me to be more social in nature versus pure mechanics, which is what I was after describing.

not that what's happened to TMA isn't because of social dynamics within the population of martial artists but the changes i'm thinking about are purely mechanical in nature.

OK, then how about "entropy"?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entropy

particularly:

2. (in data transmission and information theory) a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted signal or message.
.....
and
.....
4. a doctrine of inevitable social decline and degeneration.

**********

In a manner similar to the previous Principle, there usually is little in the way of a resurgence.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well I'm not going to promote Dave, he does a great job on product alone. The fact is allot of people are scared. They see any change, anything that doesn't fit in the box the created as wrong. Any style that says they "fight" should have people doing this sport. I'm not saying everyone should become a fighter, but for people who train at that level it should be a goal.

The fact is that everyone punches, kicks, clinches, throws/sweeps.

Its a basic set of rules to practice your techniques. I tend to stay away from people who say things like thats not "traditional". I'm a 100% traditionalist.. but I don't consider myself at a level to tell others whats "traditional" or correct. I find you learn allot about your own style, when you open your mind.

TMA must be effective, if they are not, they are going against the very core of their tradition.
TMA welcome change, anyone going against that is the anti-tma

[Oso]

OK, then how about "entropy"?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entropy

particularly:

2. (in data transmission and information theory) a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted signal or message.

not what I was trying for either. entropy happens in MA for sure, I call it the 20% rule: there is a loss or at the very least a change, of 20% of the information at each step
.....
and
.....
4. a doctrine of inevitable social decline and degeneration.


**********

In a manner similar to the previous Principle, there usually is little in the way of a resurgence.

I want to say that what I'm trying to remember came from a Heinlein book. So, not necessarily anything other than one man's opinion on something. Still, I think the reference was to automobiles/transportation. But, the more I think about it my analogy doesn't really apply...so, nevermind.

[bakxierboxer]

TMA must be effective, if they are not, they are going against the very core of their tradition.

Yes, agreed.

TMA welcome change, anyone going against that is the anti-tma

No, not anywhere NEAR specific enough.
"Change for the sake of change" should NOT be "welcome".
"Change for the better" is another matter.

It's always good to remember that: "If it ain't broke, don't try to "fix" it!"

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, agreed.



No, not anywhere NEAR specific enough.
"Change for the sake of change" should NOT be "welcome".
"Change for the better" is another matter.

It's always good to remember that: "If it ain't broke, don't try to "fix" it!"

Correct, well put.

[bakxierboxer]

I want to say that what I'm trying to remember came from a Heinlein book. So, not necessarily anything other than one man's opinion on something. Still, I think the reference was to automobiles/transportation. But, the more I think about it my analogy doesn't really apply...so, nevermind.

Yeah, I vaguely remember Heinlein wrote something "about roads".... but, that was a rather long time ago. I was reading that stuff in grade school in the 50s(?)... perhaps short story?

In any case, Heinlein wrote mostly SF.....

OTOH... it seems likely that there IS "an analogy" "out there somewhere"........

[bakxierboxer]

One thing that has always "struck me as odd" about the term "San Shou" is how closely the term "San" resembles the Latin "sans"=="without".

Anyone "familiar" with the sense of "humor" evinced by some Chinese folks should give this idea "another think", especially if they ever ran across their opinions on the meaning of "karate".