Martial Art, Martial Sport, and Martial Science and Fakes

[Boulder Student]

I haven't posted for over a year. Still doing tai chi and bjj. I just wanted to share a little bit of my experience over the last couple of years with the board.

BJJ is the best thing that could have happened to the martial arts/sciences. It is real, and it is effective. Not to mention you can really use your skills without some granola muncher whining about you being hard!!!! The Gracie's have forced everyone to get real. The response from other martial artists has forced BJJ practioners to further refine and develop addtional wrestling and striking skills. Brazil's Top Team is a great example of the BJJ attitude towards change and empty hand combat.

The majority of the CMAs are currently practiced as arts. Full contact competition is shunned and the practice of flowing forms is paramount. Techniques can be mined from the form, but application is shrouded in "mystery." Form is valued over function and application. You'll have no idea how to really throw down. These arts are valuable in and of themselves but their value in a combat situation is suspect at best.

Martial Sport is by definition a limited version of of a martial art/science where certain skills are rewarded with a trophy/medal. Boxing, Wrestling, Judo and Tae Kwon Do are the best examples of fighting arts/sciences that have slowly become almost purely sport. Judo is starting to take note of its combat roots again because of BJJ and their shared history. Mixed Martial Arts is a martial sport with the fewest rules. San Shou is sport.

Martial Science has been practiced since the early days of the Shaolin Temple. What was done before was not paramount; effectiveness alone counted. For example, Jigoro Kano created a martial science that evolved into martial sport. My BJJ instructors are always tweaking their technique to keep BJJ ahead of the rest. Theory, test theory, new theory........... They want to keep BJJ a martial science.

What do you do? Are you an artist? A scientist? A sport competitor?

[Merryprankster]

Martial Sport.

Can't do THAT without being a martial scientist though Impossible to stay on top of the game without always doing research on what works for you

[David Jamieson]

Your view is highly subjective and clearly biased towards the martial arts you practice.

That's cool though, but try to avoid making blanket statements about such a broad area as Kung Fu/Wu Shu. There are many cma practitioners who can kick some serious tail, but, as they are encouraged through their years of study to not do so, you will find few of these people in tournaments of the nature that you enjoy.

peace

[Mr Nunchaku]

I study tae kwon do, but we do not focus on the sport. When sparring, there is no point system, no trophy or prize other than learning the martial arts. While I know that the sport aspect of TKD is huge, and that's perfectly fine, there are still dojang where that aspect is not focused on.

[Boulder Student]

Kung Lek,

My opionion is subjective only to the extent it is based my interpretation of the facts and experimentation. These facts are based on my experience and the rest of the bjj communities. As far as I am aware there is no way for most CMA practioners to test their theories. I test mine every time I train to one degree or another. Sometimes I can make it work, but more frequently I have to adjust what I am doing because of live practice or the very real demonstrations my instructors use to teach.

The CMAs used to be sciences in so far as they needed to work in the real world a lot, i.e. pre-boxer rebellion. What worked was embraced, eh? Given the world as they found it, they were effective. Today? No knowledge without experimentation in a lab somewhere.

Now, the tests are few and far between, anecdotal and rarely between two skilled combatants. This has marginal combat value.

Some folks want to know, others believe.

[David Jamieson]

These facts are based on my experience and the rest of the bjj communities. As far as I am aware there is no way for most CMA practioners to test their theories.

Bjj community "facts" and "as far as you're aware" do not cover the scope of what goes on in Chinese martial arts application throughout the world.

Getting in a ring and dueling according to rules that fit your art is akin to sparring in a closed school.
They serve the limited scope of those experiences.

Policemen who use chinese martial arts such as have been written about here at KFQG.com and in their magazine, others who use chinese martial arts in ring venues such as san shou and finally those unfortunate few who have had the displeasure of using their "art" on the street to defend themselves or someone else are all examples of theories tested in reality.

Chinese martial arts have been tested and tested again and again and again.

peace

[Mr Nunchaku]

Well, obviously you can't test certain moves without people getting hurt. However, this is by no means proof or anything, but I hear a lot about martial artists who say they know there MA skill saved their life when they were attacked. So we must be doing something right.

[Merryprankster]

Getting in a ring and dueling according to rules that fit your art is akin to sparring in a closed school.
They serve the limited scope of those experiences.

Here you knock ringfighting

Policemen who use chinese martial arts such as have been written about here at KFQG.com and in their magazine, others who use chinese martial arts in ring venues such as san shou and finally those unfortunate few who have had the displeasure of using their "art" on the street to defend themselves or someone else are all examples of theories tested in reality.

Here you use San Shou as an example of testing Kung Fu- a ring sport.

Is this another MMA rules favor groundfighters, but San Shou is ok somehow?

I'm a bit confused. Enlighten me.

[diego]

merryman Breathe fu, dont make me pullout the MR.T Voice...

he was pointing out thier the same ideals, he wasnt knocking ringfighting, dontchakno.

The first guy, has bjj mastered the standup game?, ie basic human monkey motions of kick punch scratch= I Hope So, and ifso you got more study todo, becuz if they did they would realize they are not training for reality, wheras the only actual simulation of killing someone in bjj class is submitting your opponnent, its a sport you won cuz you set him up and since he tapped out or passed out in real life you would have killed him, unless the teacher likes his students to kill each other!.

read this like 5times im not dissing you and since you know that after a few reads your biasizm will understand, bjj isnt a complete art it is a wicked tool, But not Whole, your doing the same as wingchun guys when they do chi sao, submitting is akin to evasion and counter in the wingchun stickyhand Dimensions!.

Eh, dont reply read agian U MUST LEARN!!!!!!!

[Merryprankster]

diego--I'm glad you're having fun with this, but a) biasizm isn't a word, b) you're patronizing, and c) I thought I made it clear what I was talking about, d) don't ever imply that you have something to teach me. You PROBABLY do, but that isn't the way to get me to listen.

I don't think a BJJ grappling match is a real fight. I think that San Shou is considerably closer.

But if it's an MMA favors grappling thread, that's just wrong.

[dre]

Boulder - CMA is way to small in America for you to make accurate generalizations. It would be like a scientist making conclusions about 10 samples of a rare plant or animal - the range of variation is just to high. My experiences with CMA have been totally opposite. But my situation is rare.

Merry - How is me knocking ringfighters? Isn't knocking closed-door schools if anyone? I should know. There aren't a hell of a lot of rules there.

San Shou competitions are not only frequented by San Shou practitioners. On this board there were Mantis and WC players who competed in Florida in a san shou event. It seems to be like Value Tudo - you don't actually have to train the style to be at the event.

[diego]

Merry you never read my **** and it hurts me

my post ended to you at dontchaknow, the rest was for the FIRST GUY

So do you ever go at it in boxing like your gonna rip someones head alla mortal combat when you spar ifso i dont think i would want to spar you, we will prolly throw off the gloves and get roman.

also biasizm is a word for the moment it was used, its corny so it no longer is a word!. cuz i made it, so

[Xebsball]

I dont think the Gracies brought the holy grail of reality fighting in martial arts becouse the real tradicional schools had hardcore reality training before the UFC or whatever.
What the Gracies did do is develop and specialize in an area (or range) of fighting that was somewhat being neglected by most martial artists.
And kind off there were reasons for neglecting that range, i wont really list them becouse its easy to find out.

"My BJJ instructors are always tweaking their technique to keep BJJ ahead of the rest. Theory, test theory, new theory........... They want to keep BJJ a martial science."

I think you already know this, but i should enfatise (spell?) that CMA peeps do that too, the good CMA peeps that is.

[dezhen2001]

I test mine every time I train to one degree or another. Sometimes I can make it work, but more frequently I have to adjust what I am doing because of live practice or the very real demonstrations my instructors use to teach.

Sounds like normal training to me

david