Street-fight self-defense form by No_Know

[No_Know]

I had a good technique, but I didn't write it down and I am not recalling. But after reading a post by KC Elbows I had to come-up with a form for a person with around equal or smaller frame from the attacker, defending against an aggressive strong older teen male Thuggish, angry attack (lashing out--rage).

I have the general techniques, but need to arrange them to be memorable without thinking about it once learned. Like learning a song in a language you don't speak. Because you don't know the words meaning you sing it like you hear it. It's quick learning with simple effective-ish moves, hopefully. It's design is to fix the head and face and upper body.

[No_Know]

Basically it's simple-ish, but looks really cute on movie-like form.

[No_Know]

"...after reading a post by KC Elbows I had to come-up with a form for a person with around equal or smaller frame from the attacker, defending against an aggressive strong older teen male Thuggish, angry attack (lashing out--rage)."

I have the general techniques, but need to arrange them to be memorable without thinking about it once learned."

Cutting out the symmetry, there's not much to remember. If you can put your palm to the middletop of your forehead with one hand and rest the other hand on your forearm near the elbow or on the bicep and bring one up and rest the other, then that's enough.

[No_Know]

Hopefully when I'm done I'll have a very encompassing form containing generalities (such as for attacked by a group) and specifics (such as Muay Thai two hands behind your neck, pull down your head to their rising knee).

Something to give to a friend type person who is practical minded-fight useful.

[No_Know]

I was resently prompted to cope with a particular situation. Some neat moves resulted.

Also, I wasmotivated to make a form tailored to the particular interests of an individual. He has a lack of experience, an interst inpracticality and particular taste. This would be similar to the Gauntlet night form in that it would be vague-ish. The form is to deal with three to six attackers, so (needle-and-thread) the moements should be transitory-ish. Each position~ should be multi-functional since the reaction or move would be based on the actions against, at the moment.

This form is based on a particuar style within which function can be gotten. Theoretically there are several styles which can be tailored to the moment effectively. Given this, any form I make would merely be one of more than one possibilities of Correctness.

I can incorporate the form for this person into the Street Self-defense form.

While the three to six person form could be used in a attacked by tow form such as the Gauntlet Night form. The methods would vary in that the practitioner has to be ready or anticipate attack from possiblly two or more other attackers. The focused direction of The Gaunlet Nigh form make it more practical for that situation. It seems that while forms can be used in situations for which they were not specifically designed It might be likely better to use a form or techniques from a form specifically designed for that situation. Perhaps hence, so many forms.

My earlier form-making was based on my understanding of Kung-Fu Forms. A collection of sound techniques coupled to deal with multiple assailants in a logical (reasonable)~ manner. The techniques were practicle when applied to the situation. This was all there was. However, I realize that it is not set for a random encounter. The techniques Are applicable out of order of the form from which they were/are gotten. It was not noticed to question this. (but only because Of my experience negating the pure educational aspect, as it was my source for funtion). But I'm thinking now-ish (doing the three to six attacker form) that having a package of concepts of the likeliest uses of movement and stillness...Hmmm?

What I'm doing now seems to make the techniques more readily available sooner. Yet, I think that they are the same. The concept of anticipatorial transitory form condenses the use of techniques. I would be standing there then go through the six or so possibilities (or merely be aware of the possibilities).n Then execute one of the more likely techniques. The rest is a progression of likeliest occurances. Perhaps the biggest if not the only difference is the opening (posture).

[Kempo Guy]

No_Know,

I'm curious, what's the purpose of this form exactly? Did I miss something here...?

FWIW, if you were to create 'a' form, I'd suggest using 'universal' principles that could be applied in fighting whether it's evading, striking or throwing. Using set 'techniques' i.e. responses to a specific attack is futile as an altercation is never static.

BTW, if you are looking for examples of self-defense forms (that may teach some practical ability) you may want to check out "Enshin Karate" or "Ashihara Karate".

KG

[No_Know]

Thank you for the by the way.

There is feeling good about what one can do. Self acceptance. There is also a need for approval. I have only Kung-Fued for quite more than half my Life~. I don't think I would get world reknownship from the Martial community as a whole. I was interested in my own Kung-Fu. Something with which I could be Happy. I came-up with it. And it still grows.

The purpose of ths form is relevant to There must be a line or point of techniques fromwhich all others can be gotten Self- defense-wise. I thought it would be nice to look at how that collection might look. People do a lot of things yet have a lot of questions. And have similar thoughts.


This form should have many of every basic techniqe that a person would use in a being attacked self-defense situation.


It's worth a lot to have people care or have concern.

I feel I have a Great comprehension of things Movement and Design. So I would mostly use Me as a source-ish for forms. I think that things can be used on which forms can be based or designed. Professios (pizza delivery person, Businessman, truck driver...); Nature (Wind, Water, Summer, Moon...).

When responding to an altercation are you claimming things like contact, escape, release do not occure? These things are found in training stuffs also. They are hit, block, grab breaks, pain from being struck by nuckles, elbows, foot heel, using the ground to press the opponent against...

"FWIW, if you were to create 'a' form, I'd suggest using 'universal' principles that could be applied in fighting whether it's evading, striking or throwing."

That seems reasonable.

"Using set 'techniques' i.e. responses to a specific attack is futile as an altercation is never static."

The altercations are not static, yet what goes on during those altercations has been studied. This study allows for better dealing (a selection of actions based on even the results of a non static altercation).

If you don't understand yet, then I hope that someday you do. That we learn techniques as drills , exercises or forms to be used interconnectively based on perception of sponteity. They are altered to match the uniqueness of the moment. The Art or Skill comes from choosing appropriately.

[Kempo Guy]

No_Know,

"The altercations are not static, yet what goes on during those altercations has been studied. This study allows for better dealing (a selection of actions based on even the results of a non static altercation)".

You are quite right. I am not arguing the fact that altercations have not been studied. I personally believe that there's definitely a 'best' or a 'most efficient' way to strike, kick, throw, grapple etc. i.e. becoming biomechanically more efficient in dealing with altercations. It's not the techniques that are important it's the principles of proper structural alignment, power generation etc.


"If you don't understand yet, then I hope that someday you do. That we learn techniques as drills , exercises or forms to be used interconnectively based on perception of sponteity. They are altered to match the uniqueness of the moment. The Art or Skill comes from choosing appropriately."

Perhaps I don't understand much in terms of martial arts. However, I do understand what most of my teachers are/were trying to impart. If you are trying to say that the skill/art is in 'choosing' the right technique for a specific altercation I completely DISagree. Learning forms may be good for some things but it defintely does not teach spontaneity. It also lacks one very important aspect of dealing with an altercation, TIMING. Without timing you will not decrease response times against an oncoming attack. Only way to develop these are by working against resistance.

In any event, I'm not against drills or exercises. There is a time and a place to introduce these things... It is impossible to do martial arts without any type of drills or movement exercises.
As I've said in another post on this board: "It comes down to how these drills are trained. If they are always prearranged then imho they would be of no use. They need to be done against progressively more resistance in a 'sparring' environment".

These are some of the reasons why imho forms are of little value. (Just note, I didn't say no value).

Please don't take what I say too seriously. This is obviously my uneducated opinion after training in 'traditional' martial arts for some years. I still train in some 'traditional' arts, but we do very little forms...

BTW, I think this particular thread probably belongs in another forum...

KG

[No_Know]

...This thread belongs to another forum? Doing the form might develop qi. Perhaps the qigong and Meditation section. The form might be relevant to Self-defense and Reality forum. But then, it Is a form--Kung-Fu Training. Doing the form, even without intent might be healthy. Perhaps Kung-Fu training and Health is also a correct forum for this thread.

"It also lacks one very important aspect of dealing with an altercation, TIMING. Without timing you will not decrease response times against an oncoming attack. Only way to develop these are by working against resistance."

The "technique" already has timimg incorporated. It takes so long to do a technique. Getting the timimg is a reference to Speed!. Techniques can be trained to be faster or slowed and a mix. Whatever is appropriate to effect the appropriate use of the technique. "They are altered to match the uniqueness of the moment."

This can be developed with shadow boxing or versus an imaginary opponent. Resistance perhaps, merely fine tunes such development.

"If they are always prearranged then imho they would be of no use. They need to be done against progressively more resistance in a 'sparring' environment". "

It seems that in a "sparring environment" one would do a maneuver over and over against progressively more resistance. This repeating what you think works in that situation might be considered to be a Pre-arrangement. So by your thinking isn'tsparring against progressively increasing resistance useless? Technically?

...In doing the drills and forms you go over the techniques you might do in sparring. They could be very exaggerated in the form or drill. But repeating this static action you go over what different moments of sparring does so that when sparring/fighting you have experienced in your brain the situation enacted on you by the sparring partner~ Recognizing the familiar movement/attack you have a pre-designed response/ pre arranged for that type of attack/move (the static technique, but altered to suit the moment. This includes Timming and body positioning and set-up for next move (on your part or your partner's).

[Kempo Guy]

“The "technique" already has timimg incorporated. It takes so long to do a technique. Getting the timimg is a reference to Speed!. Techniques can be trained to be faster or slowed and a mix. Whatever is appropriate to effect the appropriate use of the technique. "They are altered to match the uniqueness of the moment."”

You are correct in that timing is a reference to speed. However, what I am referring to is the timing required against a moving/changing opponent, not the timing of a sequence of techniques.
Don’t get me wrong I’ve learned a lot of techniques over the last 10 years doing Kempo Karate. However, being able to pull one off in a combat situation against a fully resisting opponent is a totally different matter. If you already know what the attack is, it doesn’t matter how much resistance your partner provides as it’s already prearranged. There’s no real ‘timing’ involved.

“This can be developed with shadow boxing or versus an imaginary opponent. Resistance perhaps, merely fine tunes such development.”

Shadow boxing can be very helpful. One of the things to watch out for is that you don’t repeat the same movements over and over again. As this will carry over to your ‘sparring’, which will translate into predictability… As for resistance, without impact training you will never know if your alignments are correct and may develop bad habits…

”It seems that in a "sparring environment" one would do a maneuver over and over against progressively more resistance. This repeating what you think works in that situation might be considered to be a Pre-arrangement. So by your thinking isn'tsparring against progressively increasing resistance useless? Technically?”

Technically, no it would not be useless as it’s never against a pre-determined pattern. You may use ‘feeders’ when working on certain parts of your game, but it’s never a “you throw a right, then I counter with this technique” type of training. That would not be what I would call a ‘sparring environment’.

”...In doing the drills and forms you go over the techniques you might do in sparring. They could be very exaggerated in the form or drill. But repeating this static action you go over what different moments of sparring does so that when sparring/fighting you have experienced in your brain the situation enacted on you by the sparring partner~ Recognizing the familiar movement/attack you have a pre-designed response/ pre arranged for that type of attack/move (the static technique, but altered to suit the moment. This includes Timming and body positioning and set-up for next move (on your part or your partner's)”

Sorry, I don’t agree with what you are saying here. Doing a ‘form’ or a set technique in the air to make it more accessible in the course of a confrontation is imho useless, except for the potential benefit of ‘exercising’ and for basic coordination. I think in many ways it can be counter-intuitive to work endlessly on techniques and forms (for the reasons I described in my previous post and above). Your final statement is what I’m getting at, how can you learn timing and body positioning without a resisting partner??? It is impossible to find timing, body positioning and the spatial relationship with your partner.

I don’t have as much experience as many of the people who frequent this board, but feel I have some insight into this particular subject as it’s something I’ve been ‘learning’ over the past few years from different teachers. I don't expect anyone to agree with me as it took me a while to understand this as well...

Just some thoughts from the cheapseats…

KG

P.S. fwiw, I train in Neijia, JKD and Grappling.

[No_Know]

Again, it's worth a lot. Fresh/young/new eyes see a different perspective sometimes a forgotten perspective. So (needle-and-thread) your input has signifigance. Your understanding has value.

Things make sense to different people certain ways. When people talk they tend to be correct. They also tend to talk from their perspectives-ish. What they say, though an actual Aspect of actual, is not necessarily every time the same understanding of everyone else.

So (needle-and-thread) in this form it uses my idealistic perspective. I hopefully will look for the worst outcome of a bad situation to get at least descent techniques, useable by those who Can extract techniques from a form. And appy them appropriately. Hopefully, they, like me, don't try to finish a technique just because they start it or would like to. Hopefully I evaluate much of what I do. And if the opponent (not particularly cooperative) is not fitting a significant model for that technique, apply appropriate techniques from where the previous starts to fail.~

So-far I have a technique for protecting the head and face, the pull-down rising knee (Muay Thai), and two people attacking (punches/kicks from front left and front right simultaneously.

[No_Know]

Head/Face defense minimal execution. Hand stays on head to pad. To reduce damage taken to head. Angle of forearm, automatic interferance when directed by waist (driven at the feet (controlled by the breath~))--deflects strikes to head/face. The hand on bicep or elbow can guard side of head--ear, jaw, cheek, eye, neck. Raising shoulder can increase defense to neck. Head up, maximum keeping-out (distance). Head lower guards from stomach shots. And hinders uppercuts...

When KCElbows mentioned friend attacked by Father and seventeen year old son. I thought about that type of situation. Not wanting to hurt attacker, but wanting to not get very hurt, self. Came-up with this.

There are longer versions of this movie, that shows strikes but for the situation type for which it came about, no strikes! Striking increases vulnerability. And for untrained at least, maximum defense is recommended.

"Offense is the best defense" has it's place. That place is not here.~


Perhaps some such some might say.

[No_Know]

Any mention of fighting situations to defend against could be helpfiul.

[No_Know]

Part of the form, is described on thread linked by this.

[No_Know]

The double hand choke responses seem useful for single punches also.