5 Element Palm in Pak Mei

[Hideous]

Tnwingtsun - You speak of Dr.Wong being "pounded",a few scratches, a cut and a bruise is hardly a pounding(maybe in your book).

If you have seen the video, or were present, you know the truth of the matter. The fellow was tossed about like a rag doll and apparently with ease at that. I will not quibble about what does and what does not constitute a pounding. The uncontested outcome speaks for itself.

Tnwingtsun - The "Pounding" didn't stop his long time planned vacation to China a few days after this so called "pounding".

And Mohammed Ali checked out the hospital a day after one of his brutal boxing matches with Smoking Joe to calmly go about living his life. What is your point?

Tnwingtsun - If you're ever in town please introduce yourself,I may gain some hidden insight that I've missed.

A very generous offer, thank you ever so much. If would be good to sit down with your Sifu and at a minimum attempt undo the damage that was done by what can only be described as a very unfortunate incident.

Sanjia - What I would like to know is why did this altercation occur and what were the criteria?

A urinary Olympiad over a mutual project.

Sanjia - Who claims these things?

Sanjia I am surprised at you asking such a thing. Shhh … secrets.

Sanjia - Do you suggest that Lung Ying is Pak Mei's older brother?

Do I, or more to the crux of the matter, do you?

Sanjia - Which hand is this younger brother?

Yet more surprises at how public you are about such matters.

Sanjia - Not Bak Fu Pai surely?

Surely not Sanjia, surely not.








Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[mantis108]

*Sigh*

To my Bak Mei brothers,

Sorry, Dave, this was a good thread turned sour because of the almighty "Dialectic Tactics" resurface again. We saw that ALL religions, philosophies, logic, etc, crumble at the feet of this talented mind (much like his beloved Socrates). Why hide behind the Hideous mask? Southern Praying Mantis is a great art and so are great many Chinese martial arts which are based on truth and need not a Greek discipline to help reveal it. Truth is truth. Wether it is approached from a Chinese worldview or a Greek worldview makes not particular difference. Except of course when there is an ego involved. That makes you think you have the truer truth than anybody else. I wonder what insights you have from the meeting/conversation between Lao Tze and Confucius? IMHO, Dialectics (in your case) is but the candy coating of pride and prejudice. The sad truth about reaching a supposed higher plateau is that it is cold and lonely yet that is the spot you prefer.
With this note, I shall leave this futile debate or the quest of an ego - there is only one (the great inheritor of the Pai) that knows all, everyone else is but a fool according to your logic. Frankly, it's not my cup of tea.

Mantis108

PS Beware of the traps set by this dialectics charade hosted by Hideous. It is nothing more than a time consuming game.

[Hideous]

mantis108 - We saw that ALL religions, philosophies, logic, etc, crumble at the feet of this talented mind (much like his beloved Socrates).

You have most obviously posted on the wrong thread confused mantis108. Socrates is generally a male name is it not? Perhaps you are arguing in favor of gay love and are on the wrong forum.

mantis108 - Why hide behind the Hideous mask?

Because I am hideous and you hide behind the name of an insect and [sacred] number for what reason?

mantis108 - Southern Praying Mantis is a great art and so are great many Chinese martial arts which are based on truth and need not a Greek discipline to help reveal it.

Most of us are writing in English with a touch of Chinese now and then but most definitely no Greek. Beyond real Chu Gar Gao I care nothing for SPM. As for Greeks, I have never met any so I have no opinion on them.

mantis108 - Truth is truth.

Wonderfully profound and original statement.

mantis108 - Wether it is approached from a Chinese worldview or a Greek worldview makes not particular difference. Except of course when there is an ego involved.

Would you be so kind as to name the Greek that is participating in this thread? As for the question of ego I ask you – Who would you be without one?

mantis108 - With this note, I shall leave this futile debate …

Ah yes, the one without an ego is a quitter. Thank you for answering my question.

mantis108 - ... Frankly, it's not my cup of tea.

Then drink water, little one, drink water.

mantis108 - PS Beware of the traps set by this dialectics charade hosted by Hideous. It is nothing more than a time consuming game.

PSS Beware of advice given out by an insect with a rather high number attached to his back end that argues in favor of no self and quits.




Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[Bolt]

"A urinary Olympiad over a mutual project. "

LOL ! Excuse me for breaking out of my background silence, but even lurking... couldn't help but chuckle at this.

[sanjia]

Hideous - "A urinary Olympiad over a mutual project"

I agree with Bolt, most amusing. Would you say that the systems or the individuals were what was important in the "pounding" stakes, from your viewpoint?

Hideous - "Sanjia I am surprised at you asking such a thing. Shhh … secrets"

I cannot for the life of me understand why there is or ever has been talk of 'secrets' save to create a smokescreen or method of keeping students, so what 'secrets' do you allude to?


Hideous - "Do I, or more to the crux of the matter, do you?"

Well, using the playground rules, I asked you first :-)

Hideous - "Yet more surprises at how public you are about such matters"

OK, so are you surprised at me in particular?, or is it that you are surprised in general? Do you know me?
Why do you think that these matters should be , ahem, 'closed door'?

[TenTigers]

I was going to post this as another topic, but Sanjia kinda brought it up, so here goes:
Chueng Lai-Chen is said to have named his art Bak Mei P'ai. Before that, it was simply referred to as Ngoh Mei P'ai. Does anyone know of lineages of this art before CLC?

[Hideous]

Sanjia - Would you say that the systems or the individuals were what was important in the "pounding" stakes, from your viewpoint?

Simply a personal disagreement on the quality of the product on which they both were working. Really very much a shame. It would have been good of Dr. Wong to have memorialized his method for posterity given the man’s lineage.

Sanjia - I cannot for the life of me understand why there is or ever has been talk of 'secrets' save to create a smokescreen or method of keeping students, so what 'secrets' do you allude to?

If I spoke openly of secrets they would no longer be secrets now would they my friend? It is neither my right nor my place to do anything that would adversely impact on the ability of another to earn a living. I do not break rice bowls as a matter of personal practice.

Sanjia - Well, using the playground rules, I asked you first :-)

Fair is fair and therefore I answer, yes. Although, it might be considered more accurate if the Lung Ying Pai were noted and regarded more along the lines of the [primary stock] from which Bak Mei’s physical structures were crafted. How the actual structures are formed [energy] within the respective systems is another matter all together, would you not agree?

Sanjia - OK, so are you surprised at me in particular? or is it that you are surprised in general?

Either or, or both, it does not really matter.

Sanjia - Do you know me?

A relative term to [know] would you not agree? Without a clearly defined context I cannot possibly answer the question.

Sanjia - Why do you think that these matters should be , ahem, 'closed door'?

From a purely personal perspective, I do not. Secrets come with a price and that is that the law of entropy quickly sets in and the inevitable and irreversible spiral towards the demise of the system occurs. Since this is a personal perspective I have no authority or desire to impose it on anyone at any time. We each make choices regarding this matter and the consequences are as individual as the choices made. I have always been as open and forthright regarding my hand as conditions permitted. Sometimes the political reality of the matter took priority over my personal preferences. For the last several years I have been free to do as I please with my hand and so any one I accept as a student goes away with far more on their plate than they can possibly carry or eat. No one goes away hungry. This is merely a personal choice, however, one made in response to reason. Either the hand is transmitted in its entirety or it dies. Either each succeeding generation surpasses that of the one before it or the hand dies. Systemic entropy will not be denied so the hand is either growing and flourishing, or it is stagnant and about to reorient towards demise, or is it in fact dying at that very moment. The choice is ours and I have made mine. I choose life.






Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

[Bolt]

Originally posted by TenTigers
I was going to post this as another topic, but Sanjia kinda brought it up, so here goes:
Chueng Lai-Chen is said to have named his art Bak Mei P'ai. Before that, it was simply referred to as Ngoh Mei P'ai. Does anyone know of lineages of this art before CLC?

Though I have seen claim to someone other than Chueng Lai Chen named the style, that belief seems to be the consensus. Regarding the lineage prior to CLC - I've only seen one lineage. I have seen no disagreement about lineage from Bak Mei to CLC. Any variations or discrepencies are from that point forward.
Anyone here seen avariation through the first 4 generations ?

[fiercest tiger]

I have heard that pak mei monk learnt at the white tiger hall in the wutang temple?

maybe a connection of bak fu pai and bak mei pai what do you think?

FT

[sanjia]

fiercest tiger : "I have heard...."


You know, an awful lot of your posts begin with this phrase.

Just a comment.

[EAZ]

While CLC is the rightful heir and propagator of PM it is IMHO completely absurd to think that he is the only lineage in existence.

Is there only one 5th generation student? No.
Only one 6th generation student, no.

Is there only one official 5th generation heir? yes, his son who is still alive.


Of course there were other people who practiced PM before CLC (unless you are of the opinion that CLC made up PM from scratch).
I have been told that there were a lot since these people taught in Temples, many monks would have access to the teachings. It would have been one of these monks who went to Vietnam that I have told about. I think that another practioner, an Englishman who goes by the name of Robert (he lurks here but I will not give out his full name out of discression) and who is close to PM HQ in Hong Kong is actually right now in mainland Chin will a delegation of HK PM people looking into other branches that are not CLC. If I understood him correctly on this point then this is yet another interesting direction. Maybe Pak Mei student is aware of this trip.

The key thing to remember as FT and Kei Lun pointed out and as I understand it is that PM is an internal system of generating power, that is what CLC leanrt as well as some forms. He then went back towards all the forms he learnt in the past and applied these principles of power generation towards and modified the forms.

EAZ

[sanjia]

Hideous - "If I spoke openly of secrets they would no longer be secrets now would they my friend? It is neither my right nor my place to do anything that would adversely impact on the ability of another to earn a living. I do not break rice bowls as a matter of personal practice."

LOL, true enough, but I have a feeling that you know where I was coming from.

Hideous - "How the actual structures are formed [energy] within the respective systems is another matter all together, would you not agree?"

I would.

Hideous - "Fair is fair and therefore I answer, yes. Although, it might be considered more accurate if the Lung Ying Pai were noted and regarded more along the lines of the [primary stock] from which Bak Mei’s physical structures were crafted."

There is something here for sure, exactly what it is and how it came to be what it is, well, who is ever going to answer that one with any authority.
Personally I think lines are drawn too readily, but there you are.

Hideous - "A relative term to [know] would you not agree? Without a clearly defined context I cannot possibly answer the question."

That almost answers my question.

Hideous - "I choose life."

Indeed.

[fiercest tiger]

I heard that is correct!

just my answer...lol

[Bolt]

per EAZ
"While CLC is the rightful heir and propagator of PM it is IMHO completely absurd to think that he is the only lineage in existence. "

"I have been told that there were a lot since these people taught in Temples, many monks would have access to the teachings. It would have been one of these monks who went to Vietnam that I have told about."

I am only aware of one (can provide a link with history and lineage, but I believe it *does*refer to CLC), but I, too, think it's naive to believe the Bak Mei line is so thin.

" I think that another practioner, an Englishman who goes by the name of Robert (he lurks here but I will not give out his full name out of discression) and who is close to PM HQ in Hong Kong is actually right now in mainland Chin will a delegation of HK PM people looking into other branches that are not CLC. If I understood him correctly on this point then this is yet another interesting direction. Maybe Pak Mei student is aware of this trip. "

They should be able to discover info. I'd be interested in their results. Would they be going to Canton, Foshan ?



Good to see civil exchange of information and discussion with substance.

[Yum Cha]

So, Pak Mei consists of internal components and external components. It consists of the forms of Cheung Lai Cheun's lifes learning, and the forms learned specifically at the temple under the tutelage of the monk, more or less, on a fundamental basis.

He combined all the components and called it Pak Mei. True enough?

Therefore:

We know the forms of his life's learning exist in other lineages, and they have added a piece to the puzzle.

We know the internal power generation existed before, and thus may be widespread, and they have added a piece to the puzzle.

We know the patterns learned at the temple could have been taught to other people, and thus may be more widespread, and they have added a piece to the puzzle.

This begs the question, is a component of the whole equal to the whole?

Theoretically, the fact that Cheung Lai Cheun applied one set of lessons to another set of lessons and thus created a new base of knowledge, which he mastered and named, means that there can be no other lineage, he is the first vessel with the complete knowledge.

Just to complicate the issue, does anybody fundamentally agree with me that Kung Fu travels through the Man and not the Style?

Back to reality...

However, what I think we are talking about is the search for other heirs between the "legendary" Pak Mei and Cheung Lai Cheun, carrying the knowledge taught to Cheung Lai Cheun at the temple by the monks.

Nevertheless, it would be an incredibly interesting exercies to find out what happened in 2nd to 4th generations.... Just as long as we don't end up a distant relative of Tae Bo. That would be more than I could bear....