Why is it that Praying Mantis is so effective for fighting?

[flem]

yushan,

don't feel sorry for me, i have made the necessary adjustments- but you should be concernerned for yourself if you beleive that flopping around on the ground in your so-called ground fighting form is all that is necessary... as for bob and weave are you saying you learned this... are you claiming it is also a part of the pm you practice? i don't think you understand the extent to which i mean to apply it, i could be wrong. i am not attacking pm , it's the best, as far as having the most of the best, i just think it should keep the hands in for attack and use more body movement to defend. have you practiced w/full contact? not almost full contact, but where someone is trying to take your head off? things change, believe me

[Pong Lai]

SHun Fa or Boby Flavor/movement is one of the first details that are pintpointed in mantis' basic training.
The same Shun Fa is then applied to your two person application drills and full contact fighting. How do you build the reaction, timing, and posture of Shun Fa? As you mentioned Flem, all you need to do is train with a more realistic approach. Correct, Full Contact is totally different then non agressively drilling applications or cat scratch sparring in class. From the basics, when conducting any two person drill do not stop your punch in front of the person. This will only develop bad habits. Repition is the root of Habit. If you are going for the face, use the ears for a target. This will allow you to extend your attack and make the other have to use his Shun Fa. Attacking the stomach or lower half, well just hit and be hit, that's where conditioning and herbs come in.

PM Shun Fa and Boxing Shun Fa are different as is there expression of Jing. Jing we have discussed before. Shun Fa can only be truly effective if the WHOLE body moves as one. Your arm block, stance, and body must evade together. Bobbing, Leaning Back, Leaning of any sort will leave you open for even a larger second attack. Hesitation is also part of incorrect Shun Fa that will leave you open.

As far as ground fighting, all the styles mentioned here are very effective. I don't think any one is better then the other. How can you train to avoid and/ or defend from being taken on the ground is much more difficult than understanding what to do when you get there.

PL

[Art D]

P L

As far as the Shun Fa goes i'm in full ageeance w/ you mantis has the evasive movment and dose it very well. Again your point of it comes down to how you train is right on.

[Dachengdao]

Pong Lai is very correct in explaining the shinfa aspects of Mantis. The fast, twisting body movements as well as the ability to rapidly change the yin-yang configurations of the body make the Mantis form a formidable force. Northern style has better coordination of hand movements in relation to the other parts of the body. Mei Hua (plum blossom) in particular has many follow up movements to the initial punchwhich leaves the oponent off-balance and unable to anticipate the next strike. I still must stress the importance of internalizing the form (any form that you may practice)in order to develop the explossive energy of fali. Without internal development, external forms of Mantis cannot fare as well against the internal forms Xingyi, Bagua, etc. In order the progress in your internal growth, it is imperative that your teacher has sufficient fali in order to monitor your development. Many of my kung fu brothers are still operating from an exclusive external context without realizing how far they can take the form by internalization.

[Art D]

P L

As far as the Shun Fa goes i'm in full ageeance w/ you mantis has the evasive movment and dose it very well. Again your point of it comes down to how you train is right on.

as far as avoiding being taken to the ground this is a more ivolved indever, and one that should be trained .

My point was when you end up there what is PM's approuch ? you have seen more than I have and perhaps your Shr fu has ways of working w/ this unknown to me, and I would love to hear more on this as I have all the repect in the world for your opinion. To make my ? clear beyond avoidance , after you are there, on the ground wraped up and wrestling.what is PM's option

[Art D]

Dachengdao

I fully agree. Internal trainning is the path to high level CMA. your point of veiw is fresh and should be concidered carfully by those that wish to reach high level skill.

[Ye Gor]

Pong Lai wrote: "... Shun Fa can only be truly effective if the WHOLE body moves as one. Your arm block, stance, and body must evade together. Bobbing, Leaning Back, Leaning of any sort will leave you open for even a larger second attack. Hesitation is also part of incorrect Shun Fa that will leave you open. ..."

Ok, that sounds great but there is one thing I could never even get a glimpse of: that the WHOLE body moves as fast as the attacking hand (or foot or whatever). When punches come fast, you barely have enough time to react with an arm. To change your full stance, especially in response to several attacks in rapid succession seems beyond human.

I can kinda see how body movement can be used RAPIDLY to punch rapidly, but in defense... Iiii don't belieeeeeeeve youuuuu.

[Art D]

ye,
I think that this whole body thing is like animals move.As your hand reacts to the attack your whole body is responding as well. It may not mean a change of stance but then again with good ting jin you may already be in motion.

[Art D]

ye,
I think that this whole body thing is like animals move.As your hand reacts to the attack your whole body is responding as well. It may not mean a change of stance but then again with good ting jin you may already be in motion.

[yu shan]

flem,

I do not feel sorry for you, I was hoping to make a friend. As for flopping around on the ground being a "so-called" ground fighting form, who said I was flopping? Lighten up bro, you sound pretty wound up to me. Full contact? YOU practice with Pong Lai...don`t give me your meaningless b*llsh*t...why not come for a visit, if you question? We won`t hurt you.

[flem]

yushan,

what do you mean? i am not wound up, i am only suggesting that as with any art, pm is lacking (in my eyes) those two things. i understand pm to have g-fighting skills, but they are not ellaborate enough- again, in my eyes. why is your response always come down and see. why don't you exchange ideas here like everyone else. you know, explore the art.

[Tainan Mantis]

PM has a basic skeletal framework that the practitioner can use as hooks (figuratively) to hang other techniques.

This skeletal framework is 1 or 2 short partner exercises going down the line.

Different schools use different names...
Pai An
Po An
Yen Ching Po Fa
Lian Er Zhang
little/big open gate

This method dates back to at least Liang Hsuehsiang, the common denominator of all PM styles except 6 Harmony.

Some advantages of this method...
After mastering this short partner drill both people can use full speed and power while trying to hit the correct target.

As long as the proper defense is used no one will be maimed.

New techniques can be added to the original drill which makes for a unique method of organizing the information in the mind...

...proper mental organization is essential so that the student's mind can react without deliberate thought.

This method is not unique to PM. It exists in other styles or at least a variant of it.

This type of methodology most likely descends from weapons.
For example:
In saber vs saber the student learns a lot about timing, distance, etc while doing repetitive drills.
If one student chops off his partners hand by mistake because he wanted to be creative he may face a severe reprimand from his teacher.
Also,+ the teacher may get a bad reputation if all his students are digitally challenged.

So this method of drilling helps preserve your own students while teaching you the first step in how to defeat the opponent.

[seung ga faat]

Yee Gor,
Forms contain the vocabulary.The Sifu has definitions and the student must have a empty cup.
But, when it comes to the style and the forms even the Sifu must be a student.

[Pong Lai]

Ye Gor stated that it is immpossible to move your hand body and stance as one out of an away of an attack. This will be true if you do not train as such. Like all else. Because you can't do a back hand spring doesn't mean it is humanly immpossible. Have you trained to do so...back bend, walk over, hand spring??

Actually most MA practioners have practiced at least the most basic "one Body" movement blocks. For example, one guy punching straight in at your face and the other guy steps out to parry, turning his waist, and finishing in a void stance. Maybe a better examble is the second move in Beng Bo two man when you step out at an angle and punch underneath his strike. These are just two basic examples and not meant to be a system of training Shun Fa.

Every block is an attack within itself. If you move the body (hands, body, stance) you avoid the continuation of the agressive attack, create a pause, and open opportunity for your counter.
If you are being attacked aggressively (punches or kicks) and you only lean or move backwards, you allow the attacker to easily biuld momentum which makes your escape that much more difficult. Easy way out is stepping (jumping) to the side and "Bi Show."

Much easier taught than explained, Tainan Mantis is better with words.

[Dachengdao]

As I was formulating a response to Ye Gor's doubts, I scanned down and viewed Pong Lai's clarification of Shin fa. Once again he is right on target with his comments. The only thing I would like to add is that perhaps Ye Gor has seen more of the Southern MAntis which indeed does use more hand movements which are often seperate from the whole body continuum. Northern Mantis stresses whole body integration. I'm glad Ye Gor wrote what he did because he gave me a great idea about making a video for my website to demonstrate this very same thing. I'll let you guys Know when I have my site updated so you can see what I'm talking about and give me comments.