Why is it that Praying Mantis is so effective for fighting?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by seven_stars
atulaly what why i think this is so effective partly is because its a shaolin style

Psss......Not all mantis belongs to ShaioLin style.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Dachengdao
Hi Ye Gor,
The hands and arms may be faster, but they are also the weakest. That's why you need the strength and reinforcement of the whole body behind it. With proper training, it is easy to move the body rapidly. Mantis is all about twists and sudden reversals. Too bad you're not in NY or NJ, because I would invite you to come to one of my classes so I can show you first hand why hands alone is ineffectual. But if you're ever planning a trip out here please feel free to look me up. My addresses are on my website, which you can access from my member profile. It's good that you don't believe everything you read - you seem to be the type of person that must see things first hand. Me too! Thanks to you, I decided to add video to my website just as soon as my webmaster returns from abroad. I'll let you know when it's updated.

Our 8 step mantis system used local moves for attachments, not for strikes. Stikes are whole body moves. For example, the 12 softs: Go Lo Tsi Gua are hand attachments, all other 8 are whole body moves. There are many ways to deal with the limp strikes by applying whole body. It is not when you arrived faster that you will get what you want first. Only attacking vital points like eyes, would speed matters that much.

[Ye Gor]

Originally posted by PaulLin
Our 8 step mantis system used local moves for attachments, not for strikes. Stikes are whole body moves. For example, the 12 softs: Go Lo Tsi Gua are hand attachments, all other 8 are whole body moves. There are many ways to deal with the limp strikes by applying whole body. It is not when you arrived faster that you will get what you want first. Only attacking vital points like eyes, would speed matters that much.

Paul Lin, I don't understand this, can you explain? Thanks very much.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Ye Gor
Paul Lin, I don't understand this, can you explain? Thanks very much.

That is we used local limp movements to determine how to attach to opponent.

Go--means hook hands/fists. Lo--out side in circle deflection. Tsi--in side out deflection and grib. Gua--arm roll outward deflection.

That are the first 4, for hand attachments. The other 8 of the 12 softs are:

Shan--angle evading. Zhuan--turning repositioning. Tung--leap repositioning. Nou--moving with opponenet in ratio, both moved. Zhan--attaching. Nian--sticky and soft. Tiea--keep stick on, not lost contect. Kao--have you body attach to opponent, let your opponent carry you weight.

These 8 needs to be done with whole body.

Other than the 12 softs, we also have 8 hards. They all need to be done whole body.

When whole body force meets the local force, the local force will injur. So even though you can have the local limp strikes arrived faster, but the whole body force can just take on position and wait there for your arrival(Ye Yi Dai Lao). That is why faster not always get the job done.

Whole body force can be fast too, it just needs longer training time to achieve.

That is what I know.

[Ye Gor]

Paul Lin wrote: "When whole body force meets the local force, the local force will injur. So even though you can have the local limp strikes arrived faster, but the whole body force can just take on position and wait there for your arrival(Ye Yi Dai Lao). That is why faster not always get the job done. "

See, Paul Lin, that's exactly what doesn't make sense to me.

If the 'local limp strikes' arrive faster, how can 'whole body force just take on position and wait there for your arrival'??? If the strike arrives FASTER, how can the body be ALREADY WAITING for it? Are you reading my mind to know exactly what I'm targeting, or what?

ps: I've always been under the impression that fast+precise will always rule over power/strength. No matter how 'limp' or 'local' a strike is, when it smacks you in the nose/eye/throat/temple/neck/groin, it'll feel pretty powerful to you (the recepient).

pps: I can see whole-body-defense used for the more powerful (and slower) strikes, especially the big one-timers (one punch, one kill). But to claim that whole-body-defense is a cure-all, I just can't see it. I guess I really have to see it. Sorry Pong Lai, a trip to Tampa is nowhere on my agenda in the near future. Why not come to Boulder?

[flem]

yegor,

you are not alone. i too can see that in some instances it would be effective, even indespenseable, but i also realize it's shortcomings. i believe it to be an ideal state or accomplishment, but because of it's advanced nature it seems natural that it is easily overcome by simplicity. this is really what i was getting at with the statement "theoretical kung fu", and i think it is this so called advanced method(s) that really allows alot of other styles to over shadow cma in competition. in fact, isn't it a reality that because kf is so advanced that karate and other stylists (don't understand it"- resulting in poor scores. now i'm all for cma, it is all that i believe in as a whole- concerning ma, but such techniques in my mind are best pursued, used as a goal, and useful, mostt useful against one with a similar level of ability.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Ye Gor
Paul Lin wrote: "When whole body force meets the local force, the local force will injur. So even though you can have the local limp strikes arrived faster, but the whole body force can just take on position and wait there for your arrival(Ye Yi Dai Lao). That is why faster not always get the job done. "

See, Paul Lin, that's exactly what doesn't make sense to me.

If the 'local limp strikes' arrive faster, how can 'whole body force just take on position and wait there for your arrival'??? If the strike arrives FASTER, how can the body be ALREADY WAITING for it? Are you reading my mind to know exactly what I'm targeting, or what?

ps: I've always been under the impression that fast+precise will always rule over power/strength. No matter how 'limp' or 'local' a strike is, when it smacks you in the nose/eye/throat/temple/neck/groin, it'll feel pretty powerful to you (the recepient).

pps: I can see whole-body-defense used for the more powerful (and slower) strikes, especially the big one-timers (one punch, one kill). But to claim that whole-body-defense is a cure-all, I just can't see it. I guess I really have to see it. Sorry Pong Lai, a trip to Tampa is nowhere on my agenda in the near future. Why not come to Boulder?

The "Ye Yi Dai Lao" method will take longer time to explain. Will do that later when have time. It can also combine with "Lian Xiao Dai Da", in which attack while deflects attack at the same time. Also the method of "Huo Fa Chih Ren" That are what we used to deal with limp attack with whole body. I hope some one who understand what I am talking about will share some experience and knowledge.

Ps. there are only so many weak parts you can reach with fast limp attack, it is not difficult to deal with. You just have to stick to a few rules to make them work. Does not matter where you are going to attack on the body.

[Frogman]

I am by far less qualified on this subject then most here, but do feel that the fastest attack can be avoided or at least have it’s impact reduced simply by changing the angle of the body. At that point the two combatants are in close range and it’s anyone’s game. Readjust the body place on body check. Game point speed is not restricted to the appendages. Personal view may not even be connected the the subject mater.

RibHit
fm

[Art D]

Fm
your point is right on ,dosen't take years to find that out.just being in the mix.

[Pong Lai]

YG: We might have better luck meeting in China?

Back in town and back on line.....

Couldn't fully grasp what Frogman stated, but it sounded right on.

I guess the question to you would be, how do you block a jab and then a round house (or over the top straight punch)punch (can also be followed with another roundhouse if not countered)?
How about another quick boxing combo..Jab, upper, and over the top or roundhouse? Maybe a continuous straight punch charge (like you use to like to throw)?

Lift up your hands? Lean back? Move back?

As you, I am not talking Tai Chi speed strikes.

Not a trick question, interested in learning your tactics!

JOHN

[Tainan Mantis]

Pong Lai,
Mantis108 has a small exercise that deals with something like this.
Although no jabs, but the punches to the solar plexus are similar when done at top speed/power.
They are coupled with two hook punches.
The defender just blocks the 5 punches and then rushes forward with his 5 punch.

It is so easy that even a beginner has a chance to feel what it is like to play with top speed and power while really trying to hit the opponent.

Even though the drill is set in the beginning with no changes allowed, but you still get hit.

That is something that always amazed me... even though I know the drill I still managed to get hit.

[Pong Lai]

With Mantis 108's exercise, is the defender blocking with his forearms, closing off the punches? How is the transition when the defender turns into the attacker? Kinda like the Lu Lu / Fan Cha two man drill? Shrfu seems to have taught one about 6 years ago, similar to the Mantis 108 description of yours.

Though an attacking multiple straight punch is unpleasant to defend, I do not feel it is as difficult to react to as a high/low, etc. combo.

How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the "fastest" punch out there. A good jab, you don't have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks.

[Mantis9]

Here's how we do it:

With any combination, whether mantis, w. boxing, or anything else, I normally drill several combos (3 to 5) over an hour's time. This drilling starts with partners standing in one spot, one delivering the combo and one monitoring it. The delivery side and the monitoring side normally follow along the lines of and established form (ie Chau Choy, Bung Bo, etc.). The pace picks up rapidly b/c both sides are static and repititious which is the point.

The next phase is the inter-disperse the said combos. This slows the drill down quiet a bit, being that the monitoring side know all the delivery methods, but not in which order. The help the proactive side measure distance, delivery, and rythym issues and the reactive distance and visual ques.

The third is like the first, only movement is allowed, so only the proactive side know when the attack begins. This helps with footwork, delivery, rythym, and technical application. Things tend to get sloppy at this point, so moving from slow with good technique to progressively faster.

And forth, is a combination of phase two and three.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. It starts out with a static technique or idea demonstrated usually found in a PM form, then moves on to a progressively fluid situation until it becomes sparring or fighting.

Sometime, though, that jab or kick gets you anyway.

Mantis9

[Pong Lai]

mantis 9:

Nice to hear of your training method. Definitely can pinpoint the "Pi" and detect "Tsai" in the drills. Basically you are aware that learning the tech and then moving right into 'free" sparring is not going to allow you to be a better CMA or fighter in any style.

It is inevitable that you may get hit at some point or another.

keep up the intense drilling!

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Pong Lai
With Mantis 108's exercise, is the defender blocking with his forearms, closing off the punches? How is the transition when the defender turns into the attacker? Kinda like the Lu Lu / Fan Cha two man drill? Shrfu seems to have taught one about 6 years ago, similar to the Mantis 108 description of yours.

Though an attacking multiple straight punch is unpleasant to defend, I do not feel it is as difficult to react to as a high/low, etc. combo.

How do most fighters react to a jab? This can be said to be the "fastest" punch out there. A good jab, you don't have time to catch it out of mid air with a mantis hook, not quick enough to parry (stick) close his forearm as he jabs, what do most of the mantis fighters do to defend/attack? Eliminating kicks.

I would do a Bung and then step up with Pi. Then follow up with TaioTunChuai, left and right.