Would you convert into a different religion just to learn a certain style?

[Shadow Dragon]

I have seen many schools that won't let you join unless you coverted into their religion. Do you think this is fair and why? I don't think it's fair at all.

Huh, come again. When, where, how and WHY.
If that is the state of MA in the US, I am worried VERY worried for you Guys.

Martial Arts traditionally were practiced a Spiritual centers as those centers were the centers of learning & knowledge.
This does NOT mean that the MA is specifically linked to that Religion or belief system.
Granted they were influenced and maybe adopted some ideas.

Lets see most Religions are against unnecessary blood shed and violence, and on top of that most Priest/monks are not allowed to spill blood.
Hence maces and culbs for Christian priest, and no bladed weapons for most worshippers.
Still smile at the image that many have of Shao-Lin priests wading through a river of blood and broken Bones, they are Buddhists.
Most of the warriors at those shrines were laymen and not priests, most religions had some sort of Warrior monk.

Nuff said.

[Black Jack]

"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Isreal eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." (Ezekiel 4:12-13)

Is poop nutritional? Do they serve that now instead of fake jesus flesh?

"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that htey may eat their own dung, and drink their own **** with you?" (II Kings 18:27)

Ummmm-yummmmy poop and pee.

"If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings:yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to your heart. Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." (Malachi 2:2-3)

What is a day without some curses and some feces smeared on your face.

[Chang Style Novice]

That's one heck of a post #666, Blackjack.

[Black Jack]

Chang-

Sorry, its the mean spirited atheist in me.

[Chang Style Novice]

No need to apologize to me. I'm pretty much of the opinion that if there's anything that can be called a god, it doesn't give a rat's ass about morality, prayer, or any of the rest of that stuff. And it's a lot more likely that there's nothing that can be called a god, short of delusion-fed figments.

[Ryu]

BJ,
Mostly because these philosophers and scientists do not talk in terms of "men in the sky" or "tooth fairies" or "ever present loving superlords who love all, but kill you if you make them angry"

The spiritual component that I have seen in many scientists (including even Albert Einstien) seems to move more towards a naturalistic type of spirituality, where what you do definitely matters in terms of "good and bad" etc. Religions such as Buddhism and Taoism for example easily fit in with scientific discoveries about our universe, time, cause and effect, etc. Notions about "God" can actually do the same, but unfortunately, too many people have instilled the thoughts of actual "people living in the sky."
My comment about "imaginary friends" was merely saying that the notion of "an order to things" might not be as far fetched as some believe. Do I personally think there is an "invisible man" in the sky? I highly doubt it. However, when people discuss things about religionI tend to listen anyway.

Ryu

[MonkeySlap Too]

"Lets see most Religions are against unnecessary blood shed and violence"

What that usually translates to is don't kill fellow beleivers, everyone else though is pretty much okay.

Don't beleive me? Go read your Bible or Koran. Ask what happened to the Caananites. You know the people who lived in the 'holy land' when GOD gave it to the israelites?

Convert or die. Wheee, gimme some of that old time religion.

While it is true that Byzantine soilders were refused sacrements during war time and other similar abberations, the black and white texts of most middle eastern religions encourage a considerable amount of violence against non-beleivers.

Oh, and I'm not singling out the 'people of the book'. The culture around the Zoastrian lands is the culture that gave us the Burkha and other oppressive traits now so lovingly associated with Islam.

Just leave me alone, is all I ask. I don't want to convert, and I don't want to have to send you to your god in self defense.

[MonkeySlap Too]

For the record, I know a silat group that uses silat as a means to convert practitioners into muslims. I had a big row with these guys.

Not to be confused with some guys like Gerakan Suci, who happen to be muslims, but don't push it on you one bit. (Sufi's actually)

[Shadow Dragon]

MonkeySlap Too.

You are right of course. Christianity, Islam, etc have often been hijacked for political/economical purpose.
But don't confuse the teachings with what their followers do.

But I can't really see a KF school asking a Studet to convert to either Christianity or Islam. Which would be a good Joke in the West indeed.

Most of them will ask for Buddhism, Shintoism or Taoism, or a subsect/home cooked version thereof.

Which again is funny as most of those have the rule I mentioned and further funnily enough you can be a member of either belief system and STILL belong to another religion.

So, pls, try to think b4 you make a mute point just to be heard.

Have a nice day.

[Ryu]

"it doesn't give a rat's ass about morality"

See that I would disagree with because "morality" in the sense of some kind of universal ethics and compassion for one another seems to play a big part in the lives of human beings. "It" being a physical thing doesn't really give justice to the notion of Ethics as they stand because to me that sounds like ethics are simply a byproduct of a "God" who doesn't have to follow them "himself." That makes no logical sense to people. Hence these kinds of arguments. If you ask me (and no one did ) I really think Ethics is a key role in understanding what is harmonious and what is not. I am starting to believe that there very well could be a natural "ethic" for the way things work. Though I'm not sure how to develop that concept at this time... ( I think I'm turning into a Taoist!!)
Basically my point is this. Ethics (as in Universal Ethics that all cultures must share in preventing access pain and suffering, helplessness, etc.) should be a major point in human relations and notions of "religion" of any kind. The motivations behind actions should be understood. If "God" can simply turn around and break the "ethics" "he" prescribes, it makes ethics and any of "his" words obsolete. There is no point.
So in that sense, that is why I say what I say. My notion of "God" is much different then most would think when they heard the word. But that's just the Buddhist in me I suppose.
Wish I could talk more, but the friend I'm working out with will be here in the next couple minutes, so ....last post for tonight probably.

Take care,
Ryu

[Black Jack]

Ryu,

Just messing with ya, I do believe there is a difference between philosophy and religon dogma, the only thing I like about religon is the tax beneifts, give me some of those, maybe I can start a buiness...I mean cult...I mean religon and start saving some greenbacks.

Maybe whorship a tactical folder, or a retractable baton, or a plunger or maybe those two creepy siamese twins that I saw singing on springer today.

[Ryu]

I had to make one last post because........


A religion based on a tactical folder might lure me in for sure.

[greendragon]

Who were these people ? enquiring minds want to know. Jhoon Rhe and the Moonies perhaps ? Church of BOB ?

[ReverendTim]

Finally, a thread I know something about, and here I miss the whole thing playing Ghost Recon.

Just to address a couple points:

1. Christianity was indeed political from the very beginning, in that it was a Jewish sect, a radical Jewish sect (in its way), and the Jews were quite wrapped up in dealing with their Roman overlords. All men being the same in God's eyes is a profoundly political position to take against a system that thinks that slaves are okay and the Emperor is a god.

2. I think one of the greatest crimes organized, fundamental religion (including Catholicism, especially the pre-Luther flavor) has perpetrated on humanity is forcing rational, intelligent, otherwise spiritual people into choosing a comic book God in the sky or atheism. I have so many friends who are totally cut off from their spiritual side because too many people have tried to cast God as an old dude with a beard that keeps score. That's not God...that's Santa.

Me, I prefer mystical Judaism's way of explaining it: God is a verb.

I also like the Hindu practice of the God that is me bowing to the God that is you. I prefer to think (and I'm not alone, here) that all of us ARE God, and that simply by existing, we create God as we go.

Must...stop...talking...religion...and...hit...hea vy...bag...

Seriously, I could talk shop all night long.

--
Rev. Tim

[Braden]

MS T - Did you see my post?

The Rev -

"Christianity was indeed political from the very beginning, in that it was a Jewish sect, a radical Jewish sect (in its way), and the Jews were quite wrapped up in dealing with their Roman overlords."

You are mistaken. "Give unto caesar what is caesar's" is one of the quotes we have directly from Jesus. His philosophy was that religion had nothing to do politics - you do your religion thing, and you do your politics thing. This was directly opposed to Jewish beliefs, and specifically directly opposed to Jewish beliefs in what a messiah should be - which is exactly why Christianity was not a Jewish sect.

"I think one of the greatest crimes organized, fundamental religion (including Catholicism, especially the pre-Luther flavor) has perpetrated on humanity is forcing rational, intelligent, otherwise spiritual people into choosing a comic book God in the sky or atheism."

I'm incredibly confused about your 'pre-Luther' comment. Luther rejected the power of 'faith' (ie. belief; general religious character), the power of the 'sacraments' (ie. practices to empower direct and personal communion with the divine), and the power of 'good works' (ie. doing good stuff for people). In their place, he put the power of 'the word' (ie. reading and direct belief in the word of the Bible). This seems opposite to the kind of claim you are making.

P.S. Real men use OICW without the GL.