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Thread: Would you convert into a different religion just to learn a certain style?

  1. #46
    Braden Guest
    Gabriel -

    "No disrespects meant dispite my evil laughing last time"

    No worries, we're all friends here. We should all have a game of Ghost Recon some time.

    "I simply still do not understand.."

    What?

    "Explains how the world and universe came into being."

    This is the domain of metaphysics, not religion.

    "Details how one should live their life on a day to day basis."

    This is the domain of morality and/or ethics, not religion.

    "Outlines what happens when you die."

    Again, metaphysics and ontology, but not religion.

    Religion, very simply, has to do with your relationship to the divine. Because religion occurs within a cultural context, and cultural contexts have metaphysical and moral heritages, these fields often get confused. In most cases, you will be able to realize they are seperate fields when you see one being explained in terms of the other. For instance, you will often hear a statement about your relationship with the divine followed by a remark that "because..." and then a statement about metaphysics. Beyond that, there are some cases when metaphysical, ethical, or other statements are actually religious statements, but it's important to be able to determine when they are not - which is most often the case.

    "Ok, i think beyond the Old Testament the last two points are addressed."

    Exactly, which makes sense from my argument that the Old Testament is the cultural context within which Christianity happened to have happened. See above where I call those points issues of cultural context. I didn't plan this... at the very least you have to admit my view is internally consistent.

    As far as all that "Do you believe..." about the seven days, Cain and Abel, floods, and everything else. Considering it the way I do actually makes these points very salient. All of the things which you asked about are points of history. My belief in a flood, or in two familial heritages has absolutely nothing to do with my relationship [or even lack thereof] to the divine [whatever that might be]. But confusing this is exactly what you are doing.

  2. #47
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    Thought Shall not Kill
    Though Shalt not steal,
    Thought Shalt not covet other's wives
    Thought shalt not lie

    God only cares about the big 4, all the others are controll freaky additions.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

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  3. #48
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    Taoboxer

    The Sikhs have a weaponbased system of combat called Gatka, i belive their nienth guru told them to practise it as a part of their religion.
    I dont belive that sikhs generelly are required to carry blades, but i think the Kahlsa, their sort of priests, are.
    Gatka is way cool, i wisit my local sikh temple for a lesson tommorow, they are really glad that an outsider wants to practise their art

  4. #49
    Braden Guest
    ReverendTim

    "Anything that upsets the balance of *power* is political."

    It has been remarked that the single most overwhelming dictate of power in 'ancient' cities was water. If there were neighboring cities in a power struggle, and one recieved a strong rainfall over the course of a year, while the other did not - the balance of power likely would be severely upset. Would you claim that humidity levels and air flows in the atmosphere are political?

    "If Jesus' message isn't political, how come liberation theologists keep getting assassinated by Central American dictators for preaching it?"

    The point, I hope, has now been clearly made that non-political things can affect politics, and similarly politics can affect non-political things. Moreover, I haven't the faintest problem agreeing that the message has been misused [mis- in the sense that it's being used contrary to it's original spirit] in political matters - of course, this is of wide-scale and repugnant magnitudes regardless of your thoughts on the original message.

    "Your claim that the quote in question is directly attributable to Jesus...whether some later writer came up with a really good turn of phrase, the message is equally important."

    I'm happy with that reasoning. As an aside, check out 'The Gospel of Thomas' if you are interested, re: the Q gospel.

    "Prior to the Council of Nicea, there were lots of great Christian gnostics..."

    Sweet, you allready have. My point is that, prior to this, the gnostic or mystic interpretation was NOT held by isolated mystics, but was in fact the overwhelming message of the entire movement. One of the greatest gnostic thinkers was practically pope for goodness sake. As the movement got bigger, and as it got more political, you saw this interpretation going from being THE message, to being the majority, to being the minority, to being outlawed. If you look at what is actually said in the New Testament (even after they kicked all the gnostic scriptures out) it's ALOT more consistent with the gnostic worldview than with the political / big church of europe / scare you with our big god view (which, despite your allusions to jewish mysticism, is alot more consistent with judaism / old testament ). I would argue that the reformation and counter-reformation were, if anything, the final nails in the coffin of the original message. (just, as an aside to your remark about Luther)

    "That doesn't speak to a particularly evolved church to me."

    I never, ever made any positive remarks about the church (in the sense of the political institution).

    "Plus, just the symbolism of calling God the 'father' reinforces the notion.".

    Ah! You need to go back to Thomas. There's a very good reason to call it 'the father' and it has nothing to do with masculinity.

    "If you can describe it, it ain't God."

    I'm very happy with that reasoning.

  5. #50
    Braden Guest
    Royal Dragon That's Old Testament. Remember what Jesus said when they asked him about it?

  6. #51
    Braden Guest
    P.S. SA80 + hand grenades is also an acceptable choice. Everything else is smut though.

  7. #52
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    I think so

    Didn't he say something to the effect of the old testament not being valid anymore as he was here to correct things?

    Still, the big 4 are all GOD cares about. Even the don't take the Lord's name in vain thing is irrelevant to him.

    I mean he's supposed to be an all knowing all intelegant being, you'd think he'd be beyond that silly ego stuff, right?

    I'm tellin ya, God, Alla, Buddha and Santa Clause are all up ther shaking their heads going "They just don't "Get it" do they?"


    God is NOT all powerful and I have logic to prove it.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  8. #53
    Ha! "Smut." Bravo. And I mean it, that GRM4 mod is the bee's knees. You want a challenge? There's a pistol and hand grenade kit that ought to appeal to you.

    As to the rest of it...I would as a general note assert that if the people with the swords and the jails think you're being political, you're being political, regardless of what you're *trying* to do. As to the politics of humidity (which would be a good album title), I thought we were talking about human actions. Jesus was a profound thinker, but I don't think he had a weather machine.

    I'm glad we agree on the gnostics, and I think we also agree that the world might be better off (or at least vastly different) had their interpretation "won." Actually, I think that was my original point. That it's a great spiritual crime that their (and others like them) religion got hijacked by either more literal (fundamentalist) or more controlling dogmatics, thereby leaving people like my father-in-law in a bind because no one ever told him that there are ways of interpreting the divine that don't require you to check your brain at the church door. To be honest, he was raised Catholic, and it was his experience that made me cite them in particular in the first place.

    So basically we agree on the big questions. The divine, the Gospel of Thomas, and the SA-80.

    Not a bad day.

    --
    Rev. Tim

  9. #54

    Re: Simplicity explained

    Originally posted by Royal Dragon
    1.
    3. GOD does not care about anything you do so long as you don't harm others.



    whoa! where did this one come from?

  10. #55
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    Some of the scary stuff on request...

    Someone above asked for samples. I can go on all day, as I've pretty much read all the major religous texts of the world. I make no pretentions of being a scholar, but I've found that the Bible is replete with intolerant, viscious conduct toward non-beleivers. In fact, it encourages it. Here are some samples:

    "Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men" (Exodus 32:26-28).

    "And they found Abonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and Perizzites. But Abonibezek fled; and they pursued after him and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes. And Abonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me" (Judges 1:5-7).

    "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people . . . If thou shalt hear . . . Certain men . . . have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants ofthat city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword" (Deuteronomy13:6-15).

    I could do the Koran too, but no one asked for it.

    My apologies to my Jewish and Christian friends, but this IS what says in the holy book that no one actually seems to read.
    "Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake."
    --- Napoleon

    "MonkeySlap is a brutal b@stard." -- SevenStar
    "Forgive them Lord, they know not what MS2 can do." -- MasterKiller
    "You're not gonna win a debate (or a fight) with MST. Resistance is futile." - Seven Star

  11. #56
    Braden Guest

    Thumbs up

    Rev

    I'd agree strongly with all of that.

  12. #57
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    Most priests / ministers / rabbi's will tell you the people trounced in god's name were just bad people. I guess the American Indians were just bad people too, huh? Needed trouncin'

    Just remember history is written by the victors - or assumed by the victors.
    "Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake."
    --- Napoleon

    "MonkeySlap is a brutal b@stard." -- SevenStar
    "Forgive them Lord, they know not what MS2 can do." -- MasterKiller
    "You're not gonna win a debate (or a fight) with MST. Resistance is futile." - Seven Star

  13. #58
    Braden Guest
    MonkeySlap Too Once again though, none of that is Christian.

    "Most priests / ministers / rabbi's will tell you the people trounced in god's name were just bad people."

    What point is this addressing?

  14. #59
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    Smile

    Saw a great bumper sticker today. It read
    JESUS IS COMING
    look busy
    " Better to be a warrior in the garden than a gardner at war."
    "Ni hao darlins!" - wujidude
    "I just believe that qi is real and good body mechanics have been masquerading as internal power for too long." - omarthefish

  15. #60
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    chingei

    It came from simple observations on the workings of the world.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

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