What are the differences between Northern and Southern?

[Hideous]

TenTigers - According to 'oral' history of Southern Siu-Lum, when the Northern Temple was raized, the loyalists fled South and revamped and refined what they knew inorder to combat the Chings.

And just whose oral history would that be Ten Tigers, an objective, disinterested, impartial 3rd party of one of the Northern brood?

TenTigers - Although Southern Gung-Fu was taught TO laymen in order to fight the Ching, it was not developed BY them.

According to your reasoning, prior to the introduction of Buddhism into China proper Southern Gung fu did not exist. This is tantamount to a declaration that prior to approximately 560 AD there was no organized, refined, systemic method of combat in the Southern portions of China. Do you stand by this understanding or have I mistaken your position all together?

TenTigers - In fact, when you study both, you will realize that they have more in common then one might think.

I disagree. Southern styles do not typically employ a floating root. As the root formation is the foundation for the vast majority of power production methods this difference alone puts a wide gulf between the respective systems.

TenTigers - It;s not about style, it's about attributes.

I am not at all sure what you mean by attributes. Please define and or explain your use of this term.

TenTigers - Since the Siu-Lum Temple was a melting pot, there are many commonalities in both North and South.

Actually, Shaolin constituted a minority and much more recent melting pot as you term it. There are a fairly wide array of methods that underwent refinement in the Shaolin Temples, according to some. According to the first documented Shaolin Monk in America, who has been here for several decades, there was very little martial about the temples as a whole. Since he is in fact a Shaolin Monk not of the Communist China manufactured variety, an accomplished martial artist in his own right, I do believe there is some merit in his position.
The Taoist Temples are something else all together and far, far older institutions than anything associated with Buddhism.

TenTigers - What separates styles is not so much level of technique, but personal preference.

I disagree. The differences are very real, subject to empirical evidence based validation, and personal preference has nothing to do with the principles inherent in a given hand. Expression of the hand is another thing all together.

TenTigers - To make a blanket statement only means that you haven't been exposed to enough qualified practitioners.

And you have just made yet another in a long series of blanket statements. How do you reconcile your stated position with the fact that you violate your own tenet?

TenTigers - There are alot of "Sifus" out there teaching 'bad Karate with kewl claws' under the moniker, kung-Fu. Caveat emptor.

Agreed Ten Tigers and your caveat emptor should be burned into the mind of every prospective student.











Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[NorthernMantis]

WHat is the difference between northern and southern kugnfu? Maybe I can help a little.

This is from my experince in what I have seen.

Note: There are some execptions to both northern and southern.

Northern styles tend to have quick and mobile footwork that moves all around the place while southern styles tend to be more rooted and stable.

Example:

(Northern) If you have seen northern mantis forms like 7 star mantis you would see a lot of hopping and stomping plus lot of moving foward. The forms take up alot of space.

(Southern) If you have seen wing chun or hung gar you will see that they generally don't move much relying more on a solid base than dodgy footwork. Heck some don't even move at all. My friend showed me siu lim tau and you could practically do that form in the kicthen.

Not all but alot of northern styles rely on or have alot more kicks and elongated movements and are also known as longfists styles (with choy lay fut as one of those exceptions). I have noted that some southern styles are more compact and rely more on fists including a solid base rather than kicks.

Example:

(Northern) Tam Tui,tan tuy (another style with similar spelling but has the same Chinese characters), basically any Muslim Chinese style, northern shaolin (which incorporated Muslim Chinese kicking methods like tan tuy), northern eagle claw, lo han, etc

(Southern) Win chun, southern mantis, bak mei, etc.


Another thing that I've noticed with northern and southern forms is that northern forms generally have to land in the same spot where they began.


The reason for the differences? Geography. In north China the ground is more rocky with a dryer terrain. Allowing for easier movement. Thus enabling the person abilty to move and kick with a better degree of balane.


In southern China the ground is more moist and muddy. It rains a lot and it's marshy. The climate is warmer. Since the ground is softer it would be more dangerous for someone to kick with out falling or move around much at all. Thus I can see where there is a need for a more solid base.

I met a wing chun instructor who went to the southern part of China before and discussed the differences between northern and southern styles with me. It was pretty funny because he joked by saying that there's alot of marsh with high grass in the south and if I thought that he would jump around like in mantis with all that grass I was crazy because a snake could jump out and bite him.

Well it's not much but I hope I contributed something.

[Fu-Pow]

Good post Northern Mantis. I think sometimes that people fail to realize the context in which their art developed. Some of it is cultural but obviously it can be geographical as well.

[NorthernMantis]

No prob FP.

I was also told that northern Chinese tend to be taller and slimmer, a definite advantage if your a long fist stylist.

[fa_jing]

It is true that some development in the Southern Styles occured in conjunction with anti-Qing rebel movements.

-FJ

[Fu-Pow]

Yes I think that is true. CLF was supposedly developed for just such a purpose. There was also something called the Hung Moon Triad who was anti-ching. Don't know much more about it than that.

[TenTigers]

"And just whose oral history would that be Ten Tigers, an objective, disinterested, impartial 3rd party of one of the Northern brood?" -point well taken, I suppose that's why they don't celebrate July 4th in England.
"Do you stand by this understanding or have I mistaken your position all together?" Mistaken-when I said developed, I meant further developed, rather than "created", of course Martial Arts existed before Buddhism and Shaolin. According to some sources, the contribution Da Mo made was not bringing Martial Arts to Shaolin, but the combining of Hei Gung with Gung-Fu, thus bringing it up to a higher level. Agree? Dissagree?
" I am not at all sure what you mean by attributes. Please define and or explain your use of this term." Attributes in terms of martial arts are properties or characteristic techniques, or skills.- meaning that many arts, both Northern and Southern, place emphasis on ging, sticking/sensitivity,rooting,skeletal alignment/structure, infighting, etc. In most cases, a style doesn't OWN a particular technique, although it still might a trademark of that system, many other systems utilise the same technique.
-There are exceptions to every rule,and I suppose every blanket statement. I have a rock on my desk that has etched into it the phrase,"nothing is etched in stone"

[Hideous]

TenTigers - point well taken, I suppose that's why they don't celebrate July 4th in England.

A wonderfully season appropriate analogy. I apologize to my brothers in the United Kingdom and my comment was not made in a mean spirit.

TenTigers – “Mistaken-when I said developed, I meant further developed, …

Thank you ever so kindly for correcting my defective understanding. Agreed on this point.

TenTigers - … the contribution Da Mo made was not bringing Martial Arts to Shaolin, but the combining of Hei Gung with Gung-Fu, thus bringing it up to a higher level. Agree? Dissagree?

Disagree, my friend, although your point taken in context [Shaolin] is, I believe, very much correct. Internal Alchemy associated with Taoist practices had been incorporated into various Chinese [indigenous] hands long before the arrival of Da Mo. Some nei gung methods associated with Hakka hands are so old that even the oral histories [myths] have been lost.

TenTigers - Attributes in terms of martial arts are properties or characteristic techniques, or skills.- meaning that many arts, both Northern and Southern, place emphasis on ging, sticking/sensitivity,rooting,skeletal alignment/structure, infighting, etc.

Ah, yes, now I understand your point, very well stated. You argue that it is not so much in the [how] but the fact that a fair degree of commonality exists in the larger sense of the [what]. Food for thought and I bow in your direction.

And what do you make of the root itself, typically being different in Southern and Northern hands? Please be mindful that I am not in any way arguing or inferring one way is better than another, just different. Specifically, my friend, what, if anything, must be present if the hand employs a floating root? What would you say to the same question as applied to the Southern hand. For the sake of discussion let us loosen the binds of system specific definitions and speak in terms general, as commonly understood, with regard to North and South hands.

TenTigers - I have a rock on my desk that has etched into it the phrase,"nothing is etched in stone"

A most excellent stone to be sure. How is it that this stone only appears immediately after we have etched something in stone?











Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[yuanfen]

(Southern) If you have seen wing chun or hung gar you will see that they generally don't move much relying more on a solid base than dodgy footwork. Heck some don't even move at all. My friend showed me siu lim tau and you could practically do that form in the kicthen.
----------------------------------------
Northern Mantis-
Given your own desginated label-northern mantis- your comments are understandable but wrong. Different forms in southern styles have different purposes. The sil lim tao is for
development of alignment and structure and balance and rooting.
Wing chun is a very mobile system for those who know something about it...stability and mobility are both important
in the art.

[NorthernMantis]

Thanks for the correction.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Northern Mantis

No! northern footwork is more stable then the south while giving better mobility.

No! Northern footwork allows one to turn tighter circles then the south while having the emphasis of moving forward as opposed to staying on the spot.

No! it rains in the North as it does in "Southern California". Your terrain example is equivalent to saying north=rocky and south=muddy.

I would refrain from calling you stupid as this may ban me from the forum.

[Hideous]

Ego_Extrodinaire - No! northern footwork is more stable then the south while giving better mobility.

A statement most odd in that mobility and stability are mutually limiting. A mountain is very stable, yet lacks appreciable mobility, would you not agree, my friend?

Ego_Extrodinaire - No! Northern footwork allows one to turn tighter circles then the south while having the emphasis of moving forward as opposed to staying on the spot

Ah, I see. How is that you so highly prize playing at being a spinning top? One cannot turn in a tight circle and transverse in a linear fashion at the same time. You have some very peculiar ideas to be sure. Do you also have very much experience and skill, my friend?

Ego_Extrodinaire - No! it rains in the North as it does in "Southern California". Your terrain example is equivalent to saying north=rocky and south=muddy.

Ah, now it is made clear. You are not a martial artist but a meteorologist. A rather shabby profession given the performance rating of most weather forecasters would you not agree, my friend?

Ego_Extrodinaire - I would refrain from calling you stupid as this may ban me from the forum. I would refrain from calling you stupid as this may ban me from the forum.

Indeed, you of all people on this thread should always refrain from ever calling anyone stupid. Why would you give another person your personal designator and cause confusion, my friend?























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[NorthernMantis]

Hey Ego did those southern guys whoop your butt that hard to keep trolling or what?

Just because I meant mobile doesnt' mean that it is not stable. Don't compare the terrain of California with China. They're both different with different soil and different weather regions. Have you ever been to China? I was told this by people who have actually gone there.Don't forget that it is a bigger country and they get monsoons in the south[sp?].

I don't take kindly to idnirect insults. I would call you a self obsessed fool with a fragile ego and weak kung fu but that would be wrong.

I suggest you spend more time practicing than spending your time trolling 'cause I've seen your website and your stances are laughable for someone with such a big mouth. No wonder you got your butt handed to you by those gnor chor guys.

Yuan Fen-

I was comparing forms but you are right I am wrong, to a certain degree however. I wasn't trying to take away credit of mobilty of southern styles.I was comparing to the characteristics that northern styles would have lunging foward ,hopping/chain stepping, rolling, aerial type of moves kicks like butterfly kicks. Like I said before there exceptions.

[Hideous]

NP - The one with an ego so large he has adopted it as his name has a web page complete with pictures? Wonderful. Would you be so kind as to post the address so that I might personally see extra ego's structures? I do believe it will assist me in properly valuing his posts, do you not agree, my friend?






























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[NorthernMantis]

Ego_Maximus also used to post as Goktimus_Prime , I'm sure as you can see he is really into transformers. I know Ego might Deny it but he has denied it before and there's other people on this board to bacl me up on that.

His website can be found here.

http://www.geocities.com/goktimus/Martial.html

Funny how he has 2 southern links at the bottom right? All this time he was saying how his mantis is superior and how northern styles are superior when he can't even hold a decent horse stance.