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Thread: What the grapplers think of us

  1. #46
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    Shucks, I think it's been purged out already. The gist of the response was, if you have correct position the groin is not really exposed. Just from playing around, though, I think the greatest opportunities for a groin grab is when you and your opponent have not yet settled into a steady postion.

    -FJ

  2. #47
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    Rogue, I agree and at the same time I disagree...
    I doubt a grappler will try that on me, because I see these techniques like the last thing you can think of to retaliate (I'm the type to try anything to retaliate, I just can't stay there being toyed with whithout trying anything). I mean that a grappler who is in control won't attempt these, he'll just do what he is trained to do. Since I'm not a grappler myself, I just won't try to grapple him, and even if I tried, I would surely not put him in danger so easily, so he wouldn't have to revert to such techniques. I believe that when you're in control, like he was, you won't use such stuffs, maybe because your mind is not in the right mode.
    Of course, all the tricks I mentionned are at the reach of anyone, and no serious streetfighter will overlook them...but truly, I have seen few people even attempt them...it's not that it's exceptionnal or even hard to do, I am quite convinced it stems more from a kind of mental conditioning like "this is bad", something engraved in our minds...I am really not sure it's so natural for them. I didn't mention that when I tried it, it was on a prompt from the guy who said "in this position, there's no way you can escape if you don't know the proper evade"...I didn't know ithe proper evade by then and still don't, and it felt very frustrating to be controlled like that, and being told there was no way out...I just couldn't believe it, I'm a stubborn, I don't believe in stuffs like "it works all the time" or "you can't escape that"...I didn't panic, I just wanted to prove him wrong...so I tried what I could, struggling, and naturally it came to what I described...my point is that: he seemed really convinced there was NO mean for me to get out...why? Because as many said here in the past "we fight like we train"...and the guy, however good he was, never trained for such an option...it wasn't in his mental library...I hardly imagine any BJJ school teaching something like "watch out, someone could attempt to squeeze your groin here". Instead, they'll teach what escape or set-up can be attempted from there. Kung fu guys make for the whole majority the mistake of thinking they'll never go to the ground (I make that mistake inconsciously all the time, I know), but I just wanted to point out that a similar mistake is made by grapplers: their training is orthodox too, so most of the time they are not expecting such a retaliation, in other words they are convinced that when "in the guard" they are safe, just like we CMA think we are safe when standing.
    Of course it was a friendly roll, actually it wasn't really a roll, I just told him: show me what the ground feels like. We didn't start standing, he didn't have to take me down, or clinch under my punches, I played the dummy, just to feel how it's like to be wrestled by a grappler. There were no conventions, I played the dummy until he told me "there is NO mean you can escape", which is the biggest mistake of ANY MA: thinking something is for sure. So I did all I could to show him nothing is for sure.

    Fa jing, interesting, I haven't read it...anyway, I don't want to affirm anything since I know jack about grappling...I just wanted to share some experiences to open some more discussions...
    Thanks for telling me though, I'll look in the archives to enlighten myself
    Risk 0 doesn't exist.

  3. #48
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    Originally posted by Merryprankster
    SifuAbel:



    Brilliant observation w/regards to fight strategy here.

    Stop being reasonable and making sense, ******!!!.


    LOL! Well, thats what you get when people stop throwing soda cans at the monkey cage. When this place stops being a put down contest, you actually get something worthwhile.

    Knee locks were the first thing that came to mind in your pics. But probably not the kind you would do. Also the first thing on my mind as an away from 0 fighter(as opposed to close to 0 grappling) is how to get away so I can deliver a blow.( please no blow jokes).

    Preemptively(sp?) I would try not to get in that position in the first place. Itteruption and collision would be my weapons of choice. Not let the opponenet sneak in close while striking and never exposing my flank for a double leg. Of course, your pics were about pure grappling. Stratagies change when the rules are different.

  4. #49
    Braden Guest
    What I would do in those situations:

    Pic 1: Scream like a baby, thrashing my legs wildly.

    Pic 2: Apologize profusely and beg for him to get off me.

    Pic 3: Pretend to have a broken leg, in hopes he would leave alone out of sympathy or percieved victory.

  5. #50
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    SifuAbel--

    That's precisely correct, IMO. The pics are of a BJJ match and the rules don't facilitate standing up and backing out of my guard, and stomping the crap out of me

    I will say that leg locks are feasible--but if I'm controlling your movment/arms it's hard to attain them. But that's part of it, isn't it--who does what they do better than the other guy, before the other guy does it

    Crimson Phoenix--what Rogue is trying to say is quite valid--there was an expectation that you would not try those techniques, and consequently, they were completely unexpected. Note that this can work to your advantage on the street, but also, do hope that your friend would be paying attention to those possibilities as well--we ALL train under rules for safety, be they pulled groin shots, or not dropping your opponent on his head. We hope and trust that in real life, we will be flexible and cognizant that these rules no longer apply.

    It is true that groin grabs and biting change the nature of the game, and I will admit that. However, there is another reality of infighting--you're going to take some damage. The trick is to capitalize on openings and deal decisive damage. A groin shot or a bite is an opening--rarely decisive in and of itself. I would also point out that if you were grabbing his nuts then you were NOT in the position shown in the first two pics. I am clearly controlling both his arms. In fact, gripfighting is integral to groundfighting, and its purpose is to stifle such attacks.

    Again, to me, this falls under the "useful tricks" category--something that is certainly helpful, but no substitute for proper training.

    Old Jong--with a slight adjustment of the shin in biceps position, I could shoot for the triangle--but I prefer to go for the foot in bicep, foot on hip position shown in the second picture, from the position in the first. The second picture, as you surmised, opens up the triangle--it also opens up about 5 or 6 different sweeps for me, that I love. But note: HIS left knee is up and on the back of my right leg. IF I were to shoot for the triangle, then that knee would block my ability to shoot my hips up. This prevents the triangle. I'd rather he be extended forward somewhat, with his upper body away from his hips, or get my right hips on the inside of knees. This opens up the triangle.

    As it was, he got swept instead.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  6. #51
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks for the explainations Merry! I missed this detail in the pics!

  7. #52
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    All this talk of grappling really makes me want to spar with groundfighting involved. No opportunities unfortunately.

    This is the problem with sport kickboxing. Although we do address the ground briefly, no opportunity for any real free fighting down there. Even if there was, no-one in the class would know what they were doing anyway.

    Ah well, opportunities will arise I'm sure.
    '"4 ounces deflect 1000 pounds" represents a skill potential, if you stand in front of a 1000 pound charging bull and apply four ounces of deflection, well, you get the picture..' - Tai Chi Bob

    "My car has a lot of parts in there that I don't know about, don't know what they're called, haven't seen them and wouldn't know what they were if someone pointed them out to me .... doesn't mean they're not in there." - Evolution Fist

  8. #53

    hai, hai!

    Originally posted by Merryprankster
    Neck strikes typically don't faze me.

    CMA'ers are tired of chest thumping grapplers/MMAers who insist on 'proving' things in the ring--tough guy posturing.

    MMA'ers/grapplers are tired of CMA elitism and snobbery.

    They are both forms of arrogance, of course.
    You can only argue for or against what you know about. CMAs have been putting down the non CMAs since forever. Come- uppance and Karma can be a b I t C h! Hell, karate is still not respected by the MMAs players and CMAs stylists!

    If you've never fought in a real fight on the street, then you should just shut your trap about fighting for real in general. IMVHO.

    I've done traditional arts and GJJ for many years now, and I can tell you that it really is the stylist and not the style in many instances. BTW, how many NHB, K1, Muay Thai or San Shou guys are undefeated champs? Think about it....

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