Crane and other Bird Stances

[Gargoyle again]

From the OP:"When you bring up your leg to kick, do you pass through this stance? "

All stances are transitional.

That being said, The traditional crane stance is used as a groin/leg block, a chamber for a side kick, a transition to a scissors stance, a sweep dodge, the end of a hooking technique, a hop to the reverse leg can be highly mobile...

I had a classmate that could also spar very well out of using it as a basic stance to keep someone at long range, he was a very skilled exception though, and as soon as someone closed he would transition to other stances. Crane stances are NOT useful for in-fighting!

[SevenStar]

hmm.... I dunno about that.... look at judo's hiza guruma, or shuai chiao's ghost stance... you are sweeping the person's leg as he steps toward you. That's definitely possible through infighting. while training the crane/golden rootster, etc. stance, the elevation of the knee and movements of the arms (golden rooster) are exaggerated, but the principle is the same.

[GeneChing]

Tai Chi Ninjas? READ Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg and Shinobi-iri (Ninja Stealth) by Chris Friedman



Crane-and-other-Bird-Stances
Ninjas

[YinOrYan]

Tai Chi Ninjas? READ Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg and Shinobi-iri (Ninja Stealth) by Chris Friedman

There's also overlap of golden rooster in the fan forms and dances of China and Japan. I think doing forms blindfolded has a long tradition in kung fu. I remember one of my first kung fu instructors teaching us how to move and fight in the dark. Did anyone else here have to do this? To this day I still can walk around the house in pitch dark without bumping into anything that's not in its normal place. I even practice dances with my eyes closed once I know a dance well enough...

[SteveLau]

Disregard of stylistic differences, there is one leg stance for good. For example, lift one leg with the knee up to the waist line as a on guard position to cover one's openings. Yes, the stance does not last more than 3 seconds usually.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[wiz cool c]

There's also overlap of golden rooster in the fan forms and dances of China and Japan. I think doing forms blindfolded has a long tradition in kung fu. I remember one of my first kung fu instructors teaching us how to move and fight in the dark. Did anyone else here have to do this? To this day I still can walk around the house in pitch dark without bumping into anything that's not in its normal place. I even practice dances with my eyes closed once I know a dance well enough...

My first style Tang Soo Do had a popular form called Basai. The instructor mentioned that the form helps your fighting in the dark, but he didn't know the reason given for it.

[wiz cool c]

[QUOTE=SteveLau;1325294]Disregard of stylistic differences, there is one leg stance for good. For example, lift one leg with the knee up to the waist line as a on guard position to cover one's openings. Yes, the stance does not last more than 3 seconds usually.

I also believe in many of the Chinese Tao Lu, the lifted leg is to get the leg out of the way of a weapons attack.

[YinOrYan]

I also believe in many of the Chinese Tao Lu, the lifted leg is to get the leg out of the way of a weapons attack.

That's in interesting observation. I can see that in saber forms of both tai chi and kung fu. Come to think of it, it tends to be a precursor to jumps in the staightsword forms...

[wiz cool c]

That's in interesting observation. I can see that in saber forms of both tai chi and kung fu. Come to think of it, it tends to be a precursor to jumps in the staightsword forms...

And every lifted knee is a knee strike or low kick defense. That's how I see it.

[mickey]

Greetings,

In the forms, forward may not always be forward, close may be alot closer than we realize. Some movements suggest potential directional changes that go beyond the direction the from travels in. Then, there is the training of a stance from a chi development viewpoint, something that builds upon the physical. I agree with the previous viewpoints about this stance. Dare to look for more.

mickey

[wiz cool c]

Greetings,

In the forms, forward may not always be forward, close may be alot closer than we realize. Some movements suggest potential directional changes that go beyond the direction the from travels in. Then, there is the training of a stance from a chi development viewpoint, something that builds upon the physical. I agree with the previous viewpoints about this stance. Dare to look for more.

mickey

Good point!

[Lucky Bamboo]

Let discuss those stances with bird names, like Golden Rooster, White Crane, etc. I'm particularly interested in those stances which are one legged. This seems to be unique to Chinese martial arts. Do you use such a stance in your system? Why or why not? What is developed, is it a real skill to use in fighting? When you bring up your leg to kick, do you pass through this stance? I know the answers to these questions for Wing Chun, so I'm curious about the other stylists.

-FJ

Hi, what I can attest to about not only one legged stances but low stances as well is that the transitions during forms in the style I'm learning gives one's legs a helluva workout. That combined with the marathon-length forms and one can barely finish without being completely winded and fatigued. I am learning Mizhong Lohan, and formerly studied Choi Li Fut and Lama Kung-Fu. So my observed differences between the northern and southern is that northern styles tend to be more acrobatic, utilize more kicking, jumps/leaps/running, and high-to-low stance transitions. In the southern styes I studied one would basically and for the most part walk through the forms using predominantly hand techniques, horse to bow stances, cross stance, and stealing step.

It's fairly obvious that Chinese martial arts have imbued much of the surrounding nature as inspiration for the names given to movements, and clearly also inspired by literature "The Monkey King" for example. So as far as what is developed, in brief...leg strength! As far as a real skill to use in fighting that's always subjective. What is fighting? In the ring, during a mugging or robbery? Being a track-star would be a real skill used in fighting in my opinion if one can run away unscathed. I generally don't worry about what can be used in a fight (although I seek to understand application) as I am in it to develop myself, know myself, and each muscle. Basically to be fit, experience a tradition/culture, learn philosophy, escape daily life, etc. For example, I don't practice a sword form thinking I'll be in a sword fight one day. But that's just me. I don't see modern society as a place and time where hand-to-hand combat is a necessity. Bruce Lee said that any attribute can be used in a fight and as fights are completely unpredictable I tend to agree.

[bawang]

Hi, what I can attest to about not only one legged stances but low stances as well is that the transitions during forms in the style I'm learning gives one's legs a helluva workout. That combined with the marathon-length forms and one can barely finish without being completely winded and fatigued. I am learning Mizhong Lohan, and formerly studied Choi Li Fut and Lama Kung-Fu. So my observed differences between the northern and southern is that northern styles tend to be more acrobatic, utilize more kicking, jumps/leaps/running, and high-to-low stance transitions. In the southern styes I studied one would basically and for the most part walk through the forms using predominantly hand techniques, horse to bow stances, cross stance, and stealing step.

It's fairly obvious that Chinese martial arts have imbued much of the surrounding nature as inspiration for the names given to movements, and clearly also inspired by literature "The Monkey King" for example. So as far as what is developed, in brief...leg strength! As far as a real skill to use in fighting that's always subjective. What is fighting? In the ring, during a mugging or robbery? Being a track-star would be a real skill used in fighting in my opinion if one can run away unscathed. I generally don't worry about what can be used in a fight (although I seek to understand application) as I am in it to develop myself, know myself, and each muscle. Basically to be fit, experience a tradition/culture, learn philosophy, escape daily life, etc. For example, I don't practice a sword form thinking I'll be in a sword fight one day. But that's just me. I don't see modern society as a place and time where hand-to-hand combat is a necessity. Bruce Lee said that any attribute can be used in a fight and as fights are completely unpredictable I tend to agree.

The mainstream Chinese kung fu of the Qing dynasty, aka green banner styles, develop leg strength by lifting 150(children size)-300 (imperial minimum)lb examination stones. Even yang style tai chi founder has a 300lb examination stone in his old residence. This was a uniform standardized method throughough the land. The acrobatic movements are because much of surviving northern styles are commercial money making styles that arose during the late opium economy of the 1880s. Southern styles also began to transition to performance, but for intimidating other villages during cross-village festivals, developing muscular poses.

Horse stance training as a formal exercise is separated into horse riding training and boat riding training. For horse riding training the trainee stands on a standard plum flower pole or a brick/rod horizontally across the foot axis. Boat boxing trains by exercising on boats and standing on brick/rod vertically across the foot axis. Weights are added asap.

H2H is an inseparable part of daily life in low income neighborhoods and societies. Escape from daily life by kung fu training eventually leads to a mental breakdown where one's personal issues are not resolved/healed and one quits kung fu or become destroyed by it.

[Lucky Bamboo]

"Escape from daily life by kung fu training eventually leads to a mental breakdown where one's personal issues are not resolved/healed and one quits kung fu or become destroyed by it.[/QUOTE]

What I mean is when I enter the school for class, nothing comes in with me (most of the time). I am completely focused on that world. Outside of it, I am always managing my career, family, etc., this I cannot avoid nor would I want to. For example, I am a Middle School Science teacher and I must plan lessons, and grade papers, and acquire supplies, all on my own time. Family time is something that I enjoy when I can....this winter break for example. I do not equate my use of the expression, "escape from daily life," with "leaving personal issues unresolved." I have nothing unresolved as I could not live that way. If my life truly had unresolved issues of any magnitude I couldn't walk into that school. To an extent I must be care free to go there. Yet, life is always a struggle forward but in this day-and-age we don't resolve stress, we live with it. It's always there, we manage it. Ask a nurse...the fear of what kind of day they are walking into is ever-present, as is the fear of losing one's license to an error or some other issue. I have been doing martial arts since 1983, believe it or not. I'm 53. I did Shotokan Karate between the ages of 13 and 21. Began Choi Li Fut and Lama Kung-Fu a year later in college, then bounced around from one school to another, and various gym memberships. Then stopped altogether until the bug bit me again. It IS very much my lifestyle.

I think people do lots of things in this world to escape...alcohol, drugs (some kind of chemical), some are positive. I could call playing an instrument or gardening a momentary escape from the concerns of daily life. I don't see it as a negative, I see it as the ability to focus on something that relaxes one, at least for a while.

[bawang]

What I mean is when I enter the school for class, nothing comes in with me (most of the time). I am completely focused on that world. Outside of it, I am always managing my career, family, etc., this I cannot avoid nor would I want to. For example, I am a Middle School Science teacher and I must plan lessons, and grade papers, and acquire supplies, all on my own time. Family time is something that I enjoy when I can....this winter break for example. I do not equate my use of the expression, "escape from daily life," with "leaving personal issues unresolved." I have nothing unresolved as I could not live that way. If my life truly had unresolved issues of any magnitude I couldn't walk into that school. To an extent I must be care free to go there. Yet, life is always a struggle forward but in this day-and-age we don't resolve stress, we live with it. It's always there, we manage it. Ask a nurse...the fear of what kind of day they are walking into is ever-present, as is the fear of losing one's license to an error or some other issue. I have been doing martial arts since 1983, believe it or not. I'm 53. I did Shotokan Karate between the ages of 13 and 21. Began Choi Li Fut and Lama Kung-Fu a year later in college, then bounced around from one school to another, and various gym memberships. Then stopped altogether until the bug bit me again. It IS very much my lifestyle.

I think people do lots of things in this world to escape...alcohol, drugs (some kind of chemical), some are positive. I could call playing an instrument or gardening a momentary escape from the concerns of daily life. I don't see it as a negative, I see it as the ability to focus on something that relaxes one, at least for a while.

Thank you sir for your explanation about "escape from daily life".

For what I consider "not resolving personal issues", is the superficial aspects of kung fu that is not time efficient, which is linked to its commercialism. The following is my personal anecdotes:

I have had a number of kung fu mentors/classmates/teachers over the decades who have unstable personalities, job, and family life. The daily form training, camaeraderie in the gwoon, and sparring has not helped them resolve significant, underlying personal issues. This is compounded by the fact that modern kung fu can be quite time consuming due to its commercialism (built in training inefficiencies to provide the sifu security of livelihood). This further reduces the time that some (not all) people should spend to address their personal life issues. This is compounded by the superficial philosophical/spiritual concepts taught at the gwoon. However this experience does not universally proscribe for all practitioners, just what I have encountered.


Many (but not all) east asian marital art practitioners eventually find that their emotional support from the gwoon stops when they stop attending or paying tuition. But this is not an outstanding issue, no more different from other modern hobbies where one pays to have temporary friends.
In the qing dynasty, kung fu schools were boxing fraternities where the classmates economically supported each other, and also provided mutual aid against violence. This is where kung fu became a part of daily life. And this is also why there was less milking and training of redundant and inefficient, time consuming exercises like stance training and acrobatics.