Boztepe's Hotel Workout

[old jong]

There is nothing wrong about being in great shape.A strong guy will always win against a weaker opponent with similar technique (Well most of the times!)
If I could make a little joke about this, I could say that being strong is like a Biu Gee technique in some way!...It can help you when in trouble!

As long as physical conditionning and some speed tricks do not replace forms and Wing Chun drills,there is no problems.

[anerlich]

but I hope you don't think I said that.

No Reverend, I was not referring to you, I think your comments were sensible.

It's one thing to say that WC should not rely on strength, another to say that those who try to develop it are somehow missing the point or lack essential qualities such as the ability to "root", and by association tar Emin Boztepe with the same brush. He'd go through all of those "critics" like a chainsaw through a plate of hot tofu.

Ok, so the midair granby happened in a match. I can sort of see it now.

[mun hung]

It's true that one should'nt rely on strength...but I would'nt exactly consider it a weakness.

There's nothing like being in good shape.

[dezhen2001]

Red5: How the heck do i know how to develop a good root? I'm just a beginner! I just do SLT the way i've been taught and all i am saying is that the stance WE do is not so low...

I posted what i thought about rooting in another thread..."How deep do i go? My knees aren't a fist width apart, more than that. My stance is relaxed, sunk and balanced, gripping the ground but can still be mobile. Also my attitude is centred. That's rooted no? (if not then what is???) ". Forgot to say back is straight as well... standard stuff really.

just my thoughts

david

[dezhen2001]

Also about strength... theres more to it in WC than having a buff physique, but being healthy and strong sure is a good thing

david

[Grendel]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
Also about strength... theres more to it in WC than having a buff physique, but being healthy and strong sure is a good thing

Hi David et al,

Being healthy and strong is a good thing, but irrelevant to Wing Chun.

All these comments about what a great thing strength and physique is are a waste of electrons. Does anyone think some aerobics teacher type or Arnold Swartzenegger could have cut it in sticking hands with old, tiny Yip Man? Old Yip would've dropped him for fifty push-ups at the curb. Emin may be some bad-ass fighter as some would like to profess; I have not met him to see this demonstrated and I won't concede it, but what he's doing doesn't look like his Sijo Leung Ting's Wing Chun to me in the multitude of examples posted variously on the Internet. And further, what are Emin's qualifications as an expert on conditioning? Lots of people are more buff than he.

I try not to judge generally from what I see in video clips, but generally, even in a small selection, something that they're doing looks like the founder's Wing Chun. I ask anyone to demonstrate this to us in an Emin video clip.

And I for one am not going to do a bunch of push-ups just so my 220 pounds can stiffen up and be pushed around even worse by my tiny, much older-than-me Sifu. Heck no, I'm going to be working my horse, my connection, and my relaxation so that at least occasionally I'm not flailing around against my seniors like the people do in Emin's clips.

Sure, the sainted Bruce Lee lifted weights to enhance his Wing Chun or JKD, but he also put in the time on his horse. In an eight hour work-out, I'll concede one might find time for some resistance training, but improving one's physique is an end in itself. I agree with BL that if you're serious about your Kung Fu, you shouldn't look like a pot-bellied pig. Remember too, however, BL was an actor first and his appearance helped to generate box-office revenues.

I think the fifteen minute hotel workout should be extended by five minutes and be spent doing Sil Lim Tao.

Now, in closing, I was going to try to work in a quote from a hockey player I saw in Life magazine growing up:"I think I have the kind of body everybody should have, if only they had the time to train." In my case, it's more, I think I have the kind of stance everyone would have if they only had the time to practice their horse properly. I used to do squats with 1500 pounds, but my stance training has made me stronger, and I've given up non_WC types of resistance training. Now I only run to supplement WC.

Apologies to anyone who might construe these comments as offensive. FWIW, I have tried not to be.

Regards,

[anerlich]

I used to do squats with 1500 pounds

I think you are mistaken, since the all-time superheavyweight powerlifting record for a squat is 1074.8 pounds. 500 pounds is highly respectable other than for elite powerlifters.

http://www.powermagonline.com/latest-news/records.asp

Yip Man might have done little physical training. The real question is whether, if he had, would that have made him more or less proficient at WC? He used to smoke opium too. Should we do that?

You might want to look at Mike Parriski's articles on Rene's site. He's a powerlifter and WC instructor who has done some experimentation in that regard.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich

I think you are mistaken, since the all-time superheavyweight powerlifting record for a squat is 1074.8 pounds. 500 pounds is highly respectable other than for elite powerlifters.

Hi Anerlich,
Well, maybe I missed my true calling. This is a diversion to the actual discussion, but what the heck, eh? I'm excited. Are you? I was not talking free weight, but a machine, like a sled with free weight disks piled on top and on the ends of bar. It's still a lot of weight, but doesn't require the balance. I used to imagine the weight as being equivalent to a small car such as the first Suburu I ever saw. Sorry if I sounded deceptive. BTW, I quit weight training many years ago for Wing Chun because they are antithetical.

Yip Man might have done little physical training. The real question is whether, if he had, would that have made him more or less proficient at WC?

I consider Wing Chun physical training, and as certain as I am about anything, Yip Man engaged in it. The implication of a hotel workout is that you have only a limited space and amount of time. Given those considerations, I'd spend it doing Wing Chun, not deep knee bends and push-ups. It occurs to me, like Bruce Lee, Emin may see a financial benefit in the appearance of fitness, since he's trying to get into making movies. Since we on this list are presumbably primarily interested in Wing Chun and not just physical conditioning or making movies, we need to ask what was his goal in a 12-minute workout? Enhanced Wing Chun or maintaining his physique? Even if the latter, I could recommend a better workout.

I can't conceive of a very productive work-out in 12 minutes. It takes at least 20 minutes to achieve an aerobic state, and at least 30 minutes on average to get to the fat-burning metabolism.

He used to smoke opium too. Should we do that?

Would that help with a resistance workout? Many consumers of opiates live to ripe old age. It's not harmful in itself, although users might be demotivated to practice Wing Chun after a time.

You might want to look at Mike Parriski's articles on Rene's site. He's a powerlifter and WC instructor who has done some experimentation in that regard.

Thanks. I have talked with Mike on the Net. He's quite impressive in the weight he pushes. I was never close to him in my upper body lifts, such as bench press. My personal best was doing a paltry 320 pounds six times some fifteen plus years ago. There are probably girls who can do that now, even outside of the former E. Germany's borders.

I wish we had an exposition on Yip Man's two hour hotel work-out. But maybe that's too personal. As you've pointed out, he was reputed to have some eccentric habits.

[anerlich]

I'm excited. Are you?

If you'd done a 1500 lb technical squat and not a leg press or whatever with the sled, I certainly would have been. a 1500 lb leg press or backlift is pretty impressive all the same though.

It's a big call to assume that Emin's doing this workout to keep himself trim for movies and not because he thinks it's doing him some good.

In any case, movies often pay well and you get lots of publicity, you can't criticize the guy for trying to break in. Chuck, Bruce, Jean-Claude, Joe Sayah, Richard Norton,even William Cheung all had a go with varying success.

People seem to be reading all sorts of things into this that aren't there. Some poor KFO member thought some people might be interested in what Emin does, and bang ...

If it was me in that hotel room, I'd probably be doing the same as you, except I'd probably be doing some yoga, solo grappling drills, and breathing drills. I got a wide range of interests, and we probably have different goals. C'est la vie, vive la difference, Francais est tres bon.

I'm from TWC lineage, so I'm hardly a Boztepe apologist or jockrider.

[reneritchie]

Hi,

Unless my memory is failing, Cai is Mandarin PinYin for the character pronounced Choy (Choi) in Cantonese (eg. Choy Lee Faat = Cai Li Fu).

WCK, IMHO, doesn't depend on raw stength, but if you don't get stuck in it, any physical attribute (whether it be strength, speed, endurance, pain tolerance, etc.) can be a bonus.

The image many have of WCK comes from the generation of Foshan merchant sons. These were, mostly, small, slight, scholarly young men with some health problems (which eventually killed most of them) that pretty much *forced* them not to rely on raw strength. (Though some have said they were quite robust in their youth -- remember, most didn't start teaching until quite late in life).

There were other WCK experts who were reportedly much bigger and stronger (Chan Wah-Shun, Fung Chun, Cheung Bo, Yiu Choi) who also did pretty darn well for themselves.

Strength can't overcome skill, but can certainly take advantage of its absence. It's all well and good to talk about body builder x couldn't "roll" (which should probably be replaced with "fight" since one is not the other) with little old sifu y. Equalize the skill, then its a fair discussion again.

In the end, it comes down to control over balance and momentum. If you can control yours, and take control of the other person's, the odds are in your favor. If muscle hinders your ability in this area, it can be detrimental. If it helps it, more power to you (no pun intended).

Health is also an important consideration. For some people health concerns (or injury rehab) make strength training essential. For them, perhaps its more important (in general or even just at the time) than WCK. WCK is just part of life, after all, and for some people there are other elements to factor in as well (maybe they want to be a competitive power lifter, in addition to loving WCK, who knows?)

One thing which, IMHO, doesn't help, is the amount of sifu who talk trash about each other, infect their students with it, then let them loose to spred it around. Sifu should grow up and stop this. If the other person sucks and you rock, it will be apparent and you don't need to point it out. Students should also know better and not repeat it in public (unless they're darn sure they're *much* better than the other person/method as well and are interested in discussing it with them .

Rgds,

RR

[dezhen2001]

Hi Grendel, no offence taken

I was actually talking about being healthy and strong, but more from the Qigong and WC perspective... ie. having good health (which is different form fitness) and having good wing chun. I gave up boxing, swimming and things to start learning Qigong and WC from my Sifu, so know exactly what you mean I too have found that i am more healthy and my posture, stance etc. is nor far better and much stronger than when i did things previously.

good training
david

[Neo]

Ive managed to read through some of the replies to this original thread. Sifu Emin's hotel workout is exactly that - something to do while in the hotel for FITNESS MAINTENANCE. he performs it while travelling from seminar to seminar. This is in addition to teaching and training on the seminars, teaching private lessons, etc. If he is in a location for a few days, say at Kassel Germany, then he is able to get in proper training. The hotel workout is purely to keep fitness ticking over, not as a wonder workout!

As for meeting its objective, I'd say it does pretty well. Yes, there are alternatives, but it's just an example of using peripheral heart action (PHA) to achieve an aerobic workout, just like any other circuit training exercise. It is an outdated theory to think that you have to work for more than 30 minutes before you start burning fat. Yes, fat does burn better after 30 minutes, but a higher paced but shorter workout was proved to burn just as many calories, if not more than a longer but lower paced workout. No, I cant remember the exact journal for this, I just remember it from a research article while attending a fitness update seminar. And yes, if you are worried about your physique, then there are far better ones if you want to impress!



If you want to extend the workout by 5 minutes, 1 hour, 1 day, then thats up to you!

As for Emin being an expert on conditioning - no, probably not, but it wasn't originally posted as that - just a thread answering a question that has been banded about for a bit. Amazing how a thread goes down different off shoots sometimes....

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Grendel

My personal best was doing a paltry 320 pounds six times some fifteen plus years ago.

So you already have strength, perhaps you are too large, like my sifu...meaning you need to work on flexibilty, relaxation, mobility, increase range of motion, shoulders relaxed...

But what if you're skinny? Shouldn't you work on power? Being able to stop a big guy? Not everybody is going to have that same skill advantage that your sifu has over you. Sometimes you may come across a skilled, well-conditioned fighter. Then what?

-FJ

[Grendel]

Hi Neo,

Your post on Emin Boeztepe's workout was well received and appreciated. I am responding to some of the assumptions and assertions posted.

Hi FJ,

Originally posted by fa_jing

So you already have strength, perhaps you are too large, like my sifu...meaning you need to work on flexibilty, relaxation, mobility, increase range of motion, shoulders relaxed...

Well, I work on those things. However, being strong doesn't mean inflexible and certainly doesn't mean unathletic. But, in many cases the already athletic don't stick with Wing Chun in my experience.

But what if you're skinny? Shouldn't you work on power? Being able to stop a big guy? Not everybody is going to have that same skill advantage that your sifu has over you. Sometimes you may come across a skilled, well-conditioned fighter. Then what?

Being skinny, small, and a woman is an advantage at first in Wing Chun training. Eventually, anyone can develop power, but if that is concentrated on too soon, the individual will not develop it to his potential. If you rely on strength in Wing Chun, what are small people and us older folks gonna' do?

Again, the model for this in my mind is Yip Man, small and old(er).