southern mantis-spiritual?

[buddhistfist]

I am curious as to the spiritual components of southern mantis.Would you consider it an art for enlightnement (like tai chi or bagua) or strictly a fighting art?I know eventually all arts become spiritual but some arts have spiritual training from the start.Which area does mantis fall into?

Also, is southern mantis a buddhist or taoist art?

[Crimson Phoenix]

You know, I doubt that no true martial art has any purpose of enlightening you...it can, indeed, make you evolve, or have great benefits for your health, but these are "side-effects".
Martial arts were not meant to make you a good person, even if paradoxically this what seems to happens when practiced the right way...
That's just my personal opinion, but even more specifically you know Hakka, and their warrior blood, heart and spirit: I doubt that any Hakka art has the primary concern of enlightening you...
Just as original taiji and bagua (given that "original" means nothing, but you get what I'm saying) didn't care about philosophy, yin and yang or the yi-jing: they were martial arts, with martial purposes, and only then did practicionners who were more scholars than fighters find that yin and yang or the eight trigrams were concept that could suit these arts...
Dong Hai Chuan was illiterate as it seems...

[Hideous]

Well stated CP. A perfectly correct response to the question as it applies to SPM. First and foremost, a killing hand.



























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[Ao Qin]

Hi Buddha Fist,

If you want a most excellent article on Southern Mantis and its "religious" side, look up this article - its is over 30 pages long, and deals with the socio-cultural / religious elements within what Daniel Amos (I think a tad mistakenly) calls a "cult".

"A Hong Kong's Southern Praying Mantis Cult".
Daniel M Amos (Ph.D.)
Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 6, No. 4, 1997
PP. 30 - 61.

Happy reading!!!

[MantisWill]

I've been told by older practitioners, that after one learns the master forms, there is still qi gong and "spiritual" forms. Never really explained to me what that means; probably meditation.

[TenTigers]

some SPM schools practice San-Da, or so I've heard.

[Hideous]

TenTigers - some SPM schools practice San-Da, or so I've heard.

A correct understanding, my friend. Not necessarily part of the martial SPM curriculum proper. A cultural component rather than martial in most respects. In the same sense, the hand may properly be regarded as a cultural component of the whole. Really a matter of personal and cultural perspective, in my opinion. Sun Dar, and such things, are held inside by some and not held at all by others. The argument that without all cultural components and practices the hand is incomplete is spurious, in my opinion.

MantisWill - Never really explained to me what that means; probably meditation.

Not quite accurate; more of an error of completeness than false information, my friend. Certain practices are focused on harnessing and utilizing phenomena not generally recognized in contemporary western culture. Still other practices strive to detect, connect and harmonize with certain [things] as a means of increasing personal power. This is far from a complete and accurate overview of what your Si-hings were alluding to. Howsoever, it should provide you with the necessary insight to draw your own conclusions in the matter of how you personally value of such things.





























Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[fiercest tiger]

what has bettre hands bak mei or chu gar or are they the same?

wouldnt every schools hand be special regardless of style? As long as it teaches you to kill someone fast its a good hand to me!

[Hideous]

fiercest tiger - what has bettre hands bak mei or chu gar …

A very strange question from you, my friend. Not a matter of [what] but [who] at a certain level, would you not agree my friend? Even given the requirement for some level of skill to present in order to be properly considered reflective of the hand, what is it that fights, my friend, the method or the man? What criteria do you employ to decide the merits of each element and aspect of a hand in comparison to another hand? If you examine each gate from the perspective of a Cartesian coordinate system both inside looking out and outside looking in and all paths are accounted for then what defects could you possibly site to in order to declare one superior to the other? What significance do you ascribe to structures? Which do you most prize, artistic expression or functional practicality? What criteria do you use to compare two structures that accomplish the same task, cover the same angles, in order to judge one superior to the other? Do you value the end product structure above the internal action that caused the structure to form or do you more highly prize the hidden functions over that which is manifestly self evident?

fiercest tiger - or are they the same?

Is your question [Are they the same as externally presented forms, the visible?] or is your question [Are they the same with regard to how the resultant forms are created, the invisible?] or is your question [Are they the same with regard to how incoming forces are perceived and accommodated?] or is your question [Are they the same with regard to how force is configured and issued?] or is your question [Are they the same in that both hands contain similar technical and mechanical functional understandings?] or is your question [Are they the same in that they share a common combative or tactical belief system?] or is your question [Are they the same in that they hold the same ultimate intention?] or is your question [Are they the same in the sense they produce the identical final result?] or is your question [Are they the same in that the body internal eventually becomes shaped the same?] Just what is your question, my friend?

FT - wouldnt every schools hand be special regardless of style?

Wouldn’t every skilled individual’s hand within each and every school be special regardless of style, my friend?

FT - As long as it teaches you to kill someone fast its a good hand to me!

I add efficient and effective to the criteria listed above, my friend. Speed is a relative term and without a declared context is essentially meaningless, would you not agree, my friend? Fast in comparison to what? Efficient is understood to mean that cost in terms of energy expenditure v. outcome produced tilts in favor of a substantial outcome in response to a lesser energy expenditure . If a hand requires an individual to be [some amount] stronger and capable of energy expenditure [some amount above] that of the opponent then it is my opinion the hand is not efficient. Would you agree, my friend? Effective is understood to mean that the hand has the potential to resolve problems as they present across the whole spectrum of human movement and has the potential to do so efficiently. Of what value is a hand that requires an opponent’s movement be of [a certain characteristic, quality or nature]? Would you or would you not agree, my friend?














Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous.

[fiercest tiger]

.

[Sui]

pak mei of course.hide if you know what we know then you would think so too. not the usual western cr@p hey f.t?

lets face it hide spm was invented to conquer pak mei but never did.the little brother was no mach for the die-low.

you prefer of course spm,don't you hide?come on be honest or you wouldn't be practicing or teaching it now,would you?

i personaly would like to say that spm has a lot to learn from the pak mei clan,but then again i may be bias.but am i of pak mei pai?what do you think f.t?

[fiercest tiger]

I like SPM thats true, i know some pak mei dont do much chi sau drills but prefer to blast through and dont care about sensing at all. ykm have sensing hands and we like to blast, so i guess it kinda has a mixture.

Any styles hand can be good in a trained skilled fighter! Doesnt have to be hakka hand, chu gar hand, could be garrys hand , hideous hand, sui fuw hand, buby hand if u know what im saying.

sui,

You crack me up Bro! But what would i know im YKM not bak mei so i cant answer.

Hideous,

Good post, thats what im saying.

[atari]

Sui
Are you sure that pak mei is the die-low? Lets look at it from easily available data and not through secret transmissions or legends and the like. Chu gar as an art has been known to be around before pak mei was invented. Now, it was CLC who gave it the name. Does the taoist pak mei really exist?? But then again some might argue that pak mei is more secretive.

Fiercest Tiger
I think that neither pak mei nor chu gar concentrates on chi sau drills. Well at least not in the level of wing chun. Both pak mei and chu gar tend to have chye sau though where the emphasis is on actually blasting through or swallowing explosively. Some sensitivity is required though but I think this sensitivity is alot less than say wing chun's or tai chi push hands, the mereunderstanding of the weakest angle of the opponents bridge is sufficient. The rationale is that if you have proper shock power with correct body mechanics its very difficult for the opponent to play sensitivity.

I guess my main point is that chu gar and pak mei have more in common when it comes to hand drills, the emphasis is more blasting than sensitivity. This is my experience but I know some pak mei and chu gar schools that emphasise "chi sau" instead. Superior of course if both are incorporated.

[tnwingtsun]

"Both pak mei and chu gar tend to have chye sau though where the emphasis is on actually blasting through or swallowing explosively."



My roots are in Bai Mei,latter when I studied Wingtsun I found
so many concepts intertwined that it was a constant battle
between,hey!,this is just like Bai Mei!!

WT (from what I have learned) has the concepts(swallow/spit/sink/float) that Bai Mei/SPM has.

They(WT) don't teach the grounding that BM/YKM/SPM focus on,that being said the WT sensitivity and fast defensive skills
are more important than the "Root",or as FT's Sifu says your kung-fu is only as good as your horse,this is a misconception
of the WT system,what I have found out is the WT footwork
is the main challenge,but as far as sensitivity from the start
WT out classes the BN/YKM/SPM from the start(as a begenier)
latter on the "Shock power" of the BM/YKM/SPM out classes
the WT/WC/VT beginer,if I had to take a crash course on defending myself/family in a fight tomorrow I would choose
WT because of the way its set up,it has "Shock power" also they just don't show you until you reach a high stage,yes,they have it,but BM/YKM/SPM teaches shock power and solidity over sensitivity first(from what I've seen),so from what I've seen both
are great killing hands,but in the end,if I was a bad arse MA I would choose BM/YKM/SPM first,then find a great WT/VT/WC
Sifu,blend both(yes,it can be done without emptying your cup)

Then go back to your roots.

Most people's blood type is A, B, O, maybe AB but ya got to have something unique flowing through your veins, ya got to have the blood type-L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y not only for your Sifu,your system(my family comes first for me) God/Mission/Buddy/Country but most of all you have to be loyal to your personal beliefs.



Which brings me to this question for the people on this forum that clam to be Bai Mei/Pak Mei/Bak Mei/SPM,why don't you post your Sifu's on your profiles??

Both of my Sifu's are loved and hated,I'm proud of them both,you guys should be proud of your Sifus and you should have the balls to show your schools in your profiles

Whats to hide,I have a friend(I met on this forum) thats welcome to hang his hat
in my house anytime,yet one of my Sifu's and one of his Sifu's
don't like each other,but we get along,and thats the way it should be,the "killing hand" is elementry to the healing hand,games are for kids,grow up and come out of the wood work!


I'll tell my friends what I do where I live,but if you hide behind a name and don't give out your school I'll A$$ume that you need to grow up,if your Sifu does not want you to name your school I can understand,I started Bai Mei in 1985,its funny how the Bai Mei/Pak Mei guys come out of the woodwork with hidden roots,or no roots.



Don,In Chattanooga

BTW excuse the typos,just got back from the beach,tired

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

The drills i teach are not like wing chun chi sau rolling hands or what ever you call them. I dont believe that pak mei is just a punching range! It has trapping and sticking as its close range fighting same as chu gar they must have some drills also. Trapping works on sensitvity so both must be trained, but remember that every range has a purpose and one who can maintain his fighting range will win. All fighting ranges should be trained not just one or 2 ranges.

I think it depends on the training of the teacher and what he understands of his style when teaching it.

TN,

Nice post and i understand what you mean about wingchun to learn as a beginner as its effective thats for sure.

FT