Martial Art Contracts/ Yes or No?

[Shadow Dragon]

Personally, I find rent contracts and recreational activity contracts very different.

Why do most Sports clubs offer 1yr specials and so on, because they know that most of the people that sign up will not last longer than 2 months on average. It is a marketing ploy to get ready cash, most of them happily sign more people than they could/wish to accomodate.
Same with many a BB Program.

I am also against schools that force a certain amount of attendance and will cancel a contract if attendance falls below a certain level.
This in my Opinion are worse than McDojo as they kinda force a Student to attend, even though he might have other commitments and thus get a student body that is not training with 100% intensity when they do attend.

MA is a recreational activity, a sport even, and should be treated as such.
Some might disagree here, but unless you need MA to earn a living it is thus.
Contracts are fine, but should not be confined to a once of payment and should be flexible enough to allow for changes in a students life.
i.e.; Cancellation, lower fees for fewer classes, flexible training schedule, etc.

I need to go on an overseas Trip for my Company and thus are forced to skip a few lessons.So should I be punished for missing lessons due to being successful in my carreer, that gives me money to allow me to pay my Sifu.

Personally, some of the people that replied got too harsh a stance on what they expect of their students, and what they can dicate in their own kwoon.

You are running a scool that offers a service(MA instruction) in exchange for money and not a cult or military.
Not saying that the student can walk allover you either, but success is finding the golden line between your and your students need.

Peace.

P.S.: Playing with lit matches here.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Can I ask why a 12 month financial contract is not suspecious?

btw, what kind of contract does a bjj school work with, is there a contract?

Here is my reasoning:

a school should have per month, per season, per 6 month, and per year. As students pay ahead more, discount greater. But alway suggest the beginners to choose a shorter term just in case they find themselves not fit the arts.

Why 12 months not all suspecious? That is there are many people out there who have very stable life schedual, they can make yearly plan. But almost no one would make detail plan above a year. However, if the 12 months plan is the shortest plan, or there are pressure to push long time plan as the 12 months or above, that is highly suspecious.

Do you think that is reasonable?

I don't know any BJJ, never took any of that class, can't make any opinion.

[Black Jack]

If a educated student agrees on it then a 12 month contract sounds reasonable.

But students can vote with there dollars in the end, which to a commerical matial art school is what really matters, if a person finds a contract to be a tool which is he uncomfortable with, go down the street and find a teacher who does not use one.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I have no problems with contracts. When I had my public school, after the 'introductory' private lessons the minimum time a person could join was three months. Why? Because they would see no benefit before that time. By encouraging thier attendance (I wanted them to join AND stay, not just pay dollars for empty floorspace.) they often fulfilled thier commitment enthusiatically. Those that could not fulfill such a commitment often lacked the mental fortitude to learn anyways. I always maintained a high retention and attendance level. I did not see myself as teaching dodge ball lessons, to me it was professional education. You follow the course, and you pay for it just like you would for any other worthwhile training.

I always accomodated special circumstances as well. I let one student who was going into the military pay for three months, but attend six months of training. Another fellow came to me after six weeks and told me he had to move. I cancelled his contract, and his classmates helped him move. But the people who wagged thier tounges about training and decided not to show? They paid anyhow. They learned a valuable lesson, and I got to keep the lights on for my students.

Contracts in and of themselves are not a bad tool. But it does require ethics on the part of the school owner AND the students to use it well. I can't tell you how many people are surprised when they have to pay for lessons...

[Liokault]

HE HE

I have not had to pay for a class for a few years now as my teacher operates a policy where by any one who has been training with him for 10 years gets to train free.

I do volintarily pay for the sunday class (about which my teacher protests every week) as the numbers are very low and as its a 3 hour class its to great.

[Shaolindynasty]

Wow, I alsways thought of paying for lessons as a form of support for your school and sifu. Schools need things rent, equipment etc.

I don't expect the sifu to pay for it all out of his own pocket so he can have the "privilage" of teaching me an art i want to learn from him

I haven't ever been to a school that requires contracts but if I did I wouldn't mind paying. I actually think about the choices I make before I jump in with both feet.

You are paying money to keep the school open, trust me I have never heard of legitamate martial arts teachers being rich. Chances are they need the contracts just to get by.

People are to greedy and are ungreatful. In the past schools survived by donations of students, could you see that today? No school's would be open.

[lkfmdc]

People want big schools with lots of room, they want all the equipment, they want facilities, they want nice changing rooms, lockers, some want showers, etc. They want classes night and day, 7 days a week

most, like the "cowboy" want to just pay when they want to and not when they don't..... yet they fail to see that the two desires are contradictory

you want to pay $50 a month and not sign a contract and pay whenever you want, you are gonna get a school that is space rented in a dance studio for once or twice a week, no equipment and no facilities. And when your instructor goes broke and needs to get a real job, bye bye lessons

Did you go to college and argue with the registrar that it should be less per credit?

Do you go to the supermarket and haggle over the price of rice?

Do you tell your own landlord, "let me stay here this month and I'll get around to paying you maybe next month"

It's a wonder people do this profession at all

[MonkeySlap Too]

I would like to think that the bulk of the dislike towards contracts is a result of the fact that most beginning martial art students cannot employ 'caveat emptor'. They just don't know what they are walking into, as very few schools are very clear on what they are teaching and for what purpose. The end result is people feel ripped-off.

But IKfmdc -you are so f@cking right. There is a sense of entitlement out there that is really undeserved. People are always amazed when I won't teach them. They really think the choice is only theirs.

[BrentCarey]

Some of these points have been mentioned or implied, but I will summarize my input on the subject.

Running a successful MA school is very difficult. Most students are fickle - they come and go quickly. The owner needs to recruit at a certain rate and retain at a certain rate. In addition, to seasonal fluctuations, movies and television cause trends that come and go.

By the time a school conforms to all of the restrictions the MA community pressures to avoid "selling out", the profit margin is tight.

Some students pay regularly, some don't. Students show up, or not, cancel without notice, etc, etc.

People don't seem to want to allow MA schools to market agressively, enforce contracts, make a profit on sales, or charge what the market will bear for services.

People should understand that their school has business obligations that are quite separate from the matter of teaching martial arts. Most good teachers are not very good businessmen. This means that they need an even greater margin for error.

Contracts are a good way for schools to have something resembling consistency and reliable income. How would you like it if you had no idea from one month to the next how much money you were going to make? If you were living paycheck-to-paycheck (as many schools are), you would be in a tough situation.

It takes quite a bit of business planning and financial management to make a purely month-to-month approach work. The pay-per-lesson approach is pretty near to impossible. Would you rather your instructor sat around hassling with these details, or would you rather they didn't have to worry about it and could concentrate on training?

School owners get frustrated with how fickle people can be. They show up one day and want to be Bruce Lee, then drop classes the next day. Do they call you and tell you they are going to drop? No, for the most part, they just don't show up, then screen your phone calls.

Do not begrudge MA schools the right to use contracts as a business tool to improve the financial health of their business. Most instructors don't like having to use them, but really must. Many instructors (myself included) don't even like that they have to charge money for classes.

Let's remember that the business and the school are really two separate entities in a way. Neither would exist without the other, but school owners must run the school like a school, and the business like a business. Those two goals are not always in harmony and compromises must be made.

Peace,

Brent Carey

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by awakenwired
I don't mind contracts, that bind me to paying a month to month rate. It's the ones that would lock you in for a year or something that I would find to be kind of dangerous. Like those cell phone contracts. I don't mind paying month to month, if I happen to be late (which would never happen) I would gladly pay a late fee or something if that was in the contract. Much like an apt. contract. But it would be closer to the contract of renting an apt., and not leasing one for a year.

In LA you usually have to sign a year or 2 appartment lease and if you leave early and they cannot fill the apartment you pay. I use contracts but will let students out for good reasons. One of those reasons is notI am lazy and don't feel like going to class We don't pressure anyone to join if they don't want to make a year commitment I don't want them. For our dojo rank is based not on testing but me weatching them each and every class and when they are ready promoting them. That takes a lot of effort on my part. I don't want people coming in for a month or 2 and leaving.

[shinbushi]

i also only ding someones credit when they have been a real jerk.
My wife and I used to bend over backwards for our students all the time. And each and evey time they screwed us. The good students are the ones we don't have to bend over backwards for. The pay and come to train.

[Black Jack]

My main point is the one already stated, cavet emptor, but in the strict sense of the pure beginner.

For the contract system to work it needs good ethics and understanding from both the teacher and the student. One has to be upfront about what he teaches and one has to know what he really wants.

It is a fact though that you do see the contract system abused very often when one of those two don't add up. I think 3 month renewable contracts are great, 12 month contracts I can see a problem of teacher abuse.

[Black Jack]

Credit dings are not really credit dings, they can cause a lot of problems in regards to getting other credit lines from A grade consumer lenders, they can have lingering damage, I don't see it as something to be proud of.

I have seen these dings on credit reports before, one actually from a well known bujikan dojo who signed on a newbie 18 year old kid to a 12 month contract, he pre-paid for the month found he did not understand what he was getting into, both time wise and monetary, the lad had no martial experiance or guidence, and asked to leave after only 4 lessons.

The teacher sent his contract off to collections and there it remained on his CBR.

I don't call that good business.

[Merryprankster]

Contracts are a good thing.

They keep the lights on and my training space available.

By the lesson or by the month is going the way of the dodo.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Credit dings are not really credit dings, they can cause a lot of problems in regards to getting other credit lines from A grade consumer lenders, they can have lingering damage, I don't see it as something to be proud of.

I have seen these dings on credit reports before, one actually from a well known bujikan dojo who signed on a newbie 18 year old kid to a 12 month contract, he pre-paid for the month found he did not understand what he was getting into, both time wise and monetary, the lad had no martial experiance or guidence, and asked to leave after only 4 lessons.

The teacher sent his contract off to collections and there it remained on his CBR.

I don't call that good business.

Very true, I don't think any newbies should go for long term plan. They have to know if the place fits them or not. Any school that either not making it clear or pushing for long term plan to who ever they can catch, it is simply not care of the students and not worthy of joining. If they don't care about you fit or not, only care about money, then you don't espect to learn good arts form them no matter they has arts or not.