Speed/Technique vs Sensitivity/Precision Round 2!

[red5angel]

Ok, so it seems to me that most people are concerned with the techniques of wingchun. Often times you can hear people discussing strikes, counters, counter-counters, etc.... On top of this many people view speed as an integral part of thier training.
There was a thread last week discussing speed and why it wasnt necessary. After doing some thinking over the long weekend and may be able to explain this better.
Once the gap is closed, you are looking for contact. Once that contact is made what do you do? Do you strike? Do you block? We listen to our opponents. Try to feel their intent their next move. I have read that it is sometimes said wingchun people appear to read the minds of thier opponents and react before they react. The secret is sensitivity. It is my belief that most wing chun people have less then 1% of the sensitivity they could have. Watching some wingchun people spar or chi sau is almost painful because of those infamous flopping arms and the disconnection they maintain to thier opponents touch. Dan chi sau is the very base of this pyramid, but many sort of brush over it in a rush to get to chi sau and sparring. Without it however you have nothing but some flashy techniques! If you train diligently and smartly you develop a sensitivity that allows you to practically read the thoughts of your opponents byt feeling thier tension, even slight tension, and knowing their intent.
This kind of sensitivity allows you to go beyond what speed can give you, it allows you to react on your opponents reactions. Its precision that allows you to strike your target and hit effectively once sensitivity has done its job.

[TjD]

why not have speed, sensitivity, technique AND precision?

the chi sau i work trains all 4

[reneritchie]

Hey Red,

The way I learned, you put your hand out. If the opponent does nothing, the asking hand becomes the strike. If your opponent does something, the asking hand neutralizes it and asks again. Eventually the opponent tells you how to defeath him/her.

In general, IMHO, you don't need strength or speed or a steel chin or any other genetic gifts to achieve skill in WCK. They won't hurt you if you can put them aside and not use them to "coast", but often times un-gifted individuals are forced into becoming very conceptual, very technical, and to develop a heck of a work ethic to compensate. In fighting, however, strength, speed, resiliency, even luck can help if you make a mistake or find yourself outclassed.

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

You shouldn't have to worry about those things in chi sau. It should be building sensitivity and precision, those are the things you should be working.
The big thing however TjD, is that sensitivity and precision is available to anyone.

[TjD]

and so are technique and precision

its all about practice, practice practice practice


sensitivity is highly tied to your technique - with good technique, ones arms and body can reach the appropriate state of relaxation, which will allow your body to sense when to act, and to act so your mind does not need to think about it. without good technique your body will be too rigid to have any decent sensitivity

your precision is higly tied to your sensitivity - your ability to sense and react to where your opponent is from simple contact with their arm, or sight of their body highly relates to your precision in striking, and knowing which parts of their body are unguarded, your technique allows you to strike them properly

the combination of technique and sensitivity can greatly increase your speed; with good technique ones strikes flow smoothly and quickly, and with good sensitivity they are automatic and without thought, which definately increases speed


all four of these are tied together in many more ways than these, practicing chi sau properly will improve them all

[red5angel]

RR - of course there are the genetically gifted out there who just have an edge. with those always in the back of our mind we must assume that wingchun should be made accessible, and can be made accessible to anyone, like you said, there is no need for those gifts, just good hard work.
The idea is that with time, your sensitivity can overcome speed, even natural speed. Your root and body unity can overcome weakness and allow you to be powerful.

TjD - IMHO good technique comes FROM the sensitivity, relaxation, body unity and root.

I realized something this weekend. I am not a small guy, about 5'10" 205 lbs, I used to wieght lift a lot but now I do alot of situps pushups and pullups to maintain good health. now, this keeps me strong, but I have noticed that while doing the forms or what have you, my body has a natural tenseness to it, because of all the muscle building work I do. But it has its limits. With internal power you dont limit yourself to you muscle power. I stopped all of this and this weekend for the first time I have fealt like my body has finally started to really relax!

[black and blue]

Red5Angel wrote: "Once the gap is closed, you are looking for contact."

Once the gap is closed I'm looking to hit. So yes, contact! I'm not looking to bridge arms. If my opponent stops my attack (or if I deflect his), I'm then looking to strip down that bridge while I attack with other hand (or maybe with my feet).

I understand what you're saying about sensitivity, but in the street I'm not looking to tie-up my opponent's arms or assume a position like in poon sau... my first issue is to... err... issue. I want the strike first.

The level of bridge contact should, IMHO, be minimal. Chi Sau is a vital drill, but I have to ask Red, when someone's swinging in with hooks and jabs, and is intent on taking off your head, how much 'sensitivity' are you using to deal with the first punch?

Just a question.

There was a thread many moons ago about trapping. Trapping and detaining is often seen in Chi Sau. But again, initially, are we looking to trap or looking to hit?

[red5angel]

B&B - Of course you want to strike first! If someone is going nuts then you have to figure it out at that moment. If your opponent is more in control well, lok at the ready position, arm out in front of you. You will make contact and that is all you are looking for! By "listening" with sensitivity I dont mean touching hands and maintaining contact for an extended period of time, with some time and practice and instant is all you need!
For instance, Carl went around at the seminar and felt out hands, and instantly he could tell where our energy and intent was. Thats where you want to be, the instant you make contact you know where the opening is or where a persons energy is. As for how much sensitivity B&B? As much as I need. As far as I am concerned I train like I intend on fighting. Just because it is other wc guys I am training with, my sensitivity is being developed to handle anyone.

[dbulmer]

How could a 5ft 2 woman defend herself against a 6ft 1 bloke?

[red5angel]

Its all situational dbulmer. For example the best way is what I like to refer to as Run Fu. If for some reason this isnt possible, then by studying wingchun, developing a good solid root, sensitivity, precision, a smaller woman could have the skills she needs to get out of this situation.

[dbulmer]

Run,run Fu would be better An example of speed.
Speed is vital - in this example not engaging is perfectly ok - but the 6ft 1 guy is intent on raping her. She has 1 year of WC experience - what should she do?

let's assume running away is not possible -I know the situation is contrived but you are playing with ideas so let's take a situation that could happen.

My view is that staying out of the opponents reach and being mobile is more important in this scenario than any chi sao at her WC level.

Any thoughts - BTW This is not just addressed to R5A. I am playing devils's advocate here, I agree to some extent with R5A but I think sensitivity is not the only factor important to WC - there's a myriad of factors.

Speed, root+structure, mobility are the essence of WC.
BTW I cannot really answer my own scenario -I'd be out of my depth in suggesting a solution but I'd probably advise foot stamping and groin kicks to give her time to escape.

Any better ideas?
What I am getting at is that quite a few WC guys like me are unskilled and it takes time to develop the sensitivity, timing, root and speed to get proficient. I think sensitivity takes the longest skill to acquire but speed can be developed more quickly and be added to your WC arsenal in a shorter amount of time. A simplistic view I appreciate.

[red5angel]

Well,. I hate to discuss specific situations because there are too many unknowns. Each situation will play out in its own way and we practice martial arts to give us some control over the situation. In this instance, a year of training can be a lot or a little. For the women there may or may not be anything at this stage of the game (This is why I am vehemently against so called self defense classes). To be absolutely realistic there may be nothing she can do. Technique wise, who knows, maybe she has learned some good joint locks or joint breaks, something to convince this guy that he absolutely does not want to mess with her. after only a year of training, speed has as much a chance as anything else for her.

For me, root + structure + precision + sensitivity are all the foundations of WC. Speed can be developed but that is time you can spend developing those other things that wont abandon you later in life. Besides, for some, speed never comes.

Carl said something that made a lot of sense. In Sports where you contend with athletes, there is always going to be someone with higher natural gifts then you. If you want to train that way you can guarentee that there will be better people. If you dont worry about that, train the things that can be taught to anyone, you can overcome the majority of your opponents.

[Sabu]

Red5angel:
"This is the word of the Lord"

Congregation replies:
"Thanks be to God" (sign of the cross)

[TjD]

TjD - IMHO good technique comes FROM the sensitivity, relaxation, body unity and root.
****************

its a two way street

good technique will improve sensitivity, relaxation, body unity and root


they play off each other

you cant have one without the other; when you improve one, you improve the other

thats whats nice about chi sau, it works all of these factors and more

[TjD]

it might be good to make a distinction

if you practice chi sau for the wrong kind of speed, or wrong techniques (read both these as muscled - non relaxed) then they are non beneficial

however if trained correctly they enhance the other qualities