"Mcdojo.com"

[Nichiren]

I'm just curious about one thing. Is the shotokan karate guy a valid black belt??? Does he got the black belt under a legit organization???

I have sparred shotokan guys and to say that a shotokan black belt don't know how to punch is ridicoulus. Of course he knows how to throw a puch, of course hes got timming, of course hes tuff... I'm actually pretty certain that the average shotokan outclasses the average KF guy. Lots of qulity in that training.

/Cheers

[SifuAbel]

yeah, right. Not this KF guy.

[jungle-mania]

I have sparred and won over shotokan black belts before and I am from sanshou, don't see how CMA can't stop karate, visa versa.

[jungle-mania]

I do recall once that a science article indicated that man was never design for fighting and based on our body structure, we are more of hunter/gatherer that probably climb trees to get food. Wouldn't that mean grappling would be more ergonomic to our body type, since the way the muscles are worked are the same in both cases. (Gymnast the next best martial art? kidding)

[jungle-mania]

I do recall once that a science article indicated that man was never design for fighting and based on our body structure, we are more of hunter/gatherer that probably climb trees to get food. Wouldn't that mean grappling would be more ergonomic to our body type, since the way the muscles are worked are the same in both cases. (Gymnast the next best martial art? kidding)

[Felipe Bido]

Watch yo mouth call Gymkata lame

[Water Dragon]

Joyce would choke Gymkata

[Phrost]

Actually, if we find a BJJ/etc McDojo we'll call a spade a spade, no problem. Just because someone "teaches" BJJ, that doesn't mean they're exempt from scrutiny.

Three years ago I made this post. And I've kept my promise.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...threadid=29071

This is on the front page of Bullshido right now, and we're actively working on it. Just wanted to bump this old thread because I made a commitment, and followed through on it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Haven't read through this whole thread, so what I'm about to say might have been covered already, but here goes:

Regardless of what what art(s) you study, I think your school qualifies as a "McDojo" if you're being told (sold) that what you're learning will make you streetfight ready...

when in fact there's NO hard contact sparring going on, NO working against other standup style's moves that are quality, (ie.-boxing), NO work against quality takedowns and quality ground-grappling, (and the use thereof), NO work against headlocks, bear hugs, full nelson's, grab, push, and punch streetfighter tactics, etc. (all being done with real intensity)...and NO work against realistic knife/stick/multiple opponent attacks.

[Merryprankster]

Phrost,

I agree that this was bound to happen. However, a difference between BJJ and many of the "traditional" arts (whatever that really means), is that in BJJ there are two largely agreed upon sportive formats where BJJer's can test their skills against others. One is sport grappling. The other is MMA. Both of these are integral to the BJJ culture.

BJJ is going to go the way of Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, etc. There are going to be crap places not worth the dime or the time. There are going to be decent, neighborhood, "hobbyist" places catering to the guy who just wants to learn a little stuff and have a little fun and maybe even get a little good. There's going to be the best of the regional schools. Then, there are going to be those places that churn out top level competition.

Why is this important? Because if you want to, you will always be able to find those great places. You will always be able to take your training to the next level if you want to. Judo, wrestling and boxing - you can name where and who you need to go to to get good at them. BJJ is following that route - and there is nothing wrong with that division. It will help the sport and art grow. Exposure = volume, volume = larger talent pool and more minds working on the same "problem," and that ultimately leads to better BJJ over all.

Not every Black Belt in BJJ in Brazil is a world beater. There are black belts, and then there are black belts - and that's always been that way.

Contrast this model with many of the "traditional" arts. There is no agreed upon venue for testing skill, and in many cases sportive combat is looked down on. This leads to a lack of standards. And many arts - as so often mentioned on here - have a "closed door" system limiting the number of people and minds working on the "problem." Anybody can claim anything and it's hard to check - and if you are checking, then what are you checking against?

In sportive arts, by contrast, you can poke around the community fairly easily thanks to the large number of competitions and learn a lot about who is good and who produces good competitors based on a fairly common set of standards. Ie, how do we know Cael Sanderson is good - oh, he was undefeated in NCAA wrestling. How do we know Rhadi Ferguson is good - oh, he was at the Olympics for Judo. How do we know Coach Ross has a good San da program - oh, he keeps producing top competitors, etc.

[Phrost]

Not every Black Belt in BJJ in Brazil is a world beater. There are black belts, and then there are black belts - and that's always been that way.

We're talking about the same BJJ right? As it stands of today, November 19, 2005, 99.999% of BJJ black belts hold that rank because they are superior grapplers above and beyond anyone else in BJJ.

BJJ, until this point, has had superior quality control in who is allowed to hold that rank, and who is allowed to teach.

We're just stepping up to stem the tide of BS that this business model would cause.

I posted this on Bullshido, but it bares repeating:

If you could go back to the "day" Taekwondo and Karate were transformed from fighting arts, to a commercial product sold to consumers at the expense of many of their practical aspects, would you:

a.) try to do something about it

or

b.) throw up your hands and hope people better than you would?

It's a matter of personal character and integrity.

I won't list the possible consequences of something like this taking hold; they're already detailed in the thread in question. But think of this... BJJ is respected now as an effective fighting art. As you said, many instructors of "Traditional" arts hide behind excuses to not demonstrate their proficiency. If you put aside all the other problems this could cause (people getting hurt due to an unrealistic assessment of their own skills when the time comes to defend themselves, for example) and just the respect of BJJ was the only thing at stake here, wouldn't it be important to see those pearls not trampled on by swine looking to make a fast buck off the BJJ reputation while simultaneously degrading the reputation itself?

[Merryprankster]

Phrost, I don't think I'm making myself clear.

What I am saying is that the sportive model of BJJ will prevent the wholesale destruction of standards that you seem to be concerned with. Boxing, wrestling and Judo have not lost their credibility as fighting arts because their sportive contexts have preserved large pockets of competency.

We don't "need to do anything about it," (although, for the record, I applaud any efforts to root out frauds just because of the principle of the issue) because the sportive context will preserve the art. People will always know where to go to receive quality instruction if they choose to do so.

The biggest mistake many of the "TMAs" made was hiding their art, and not agreeing on a full-speed, full-contact competition format to test what they do. Being "too deadly," was a detriment to preserving effectiveness.

The rise of frauds and people looking to make a quick buck off of BJJ is inevitable, and McDojo's will proliferate despite the best intentions of people like you to curb that, just as bad judo, wrestling and boxing have proliferated. But, as before, the pockets of competency will remain - and like judo, wrestling and boxing, they will be large, highly visible, and numerous.

That does not mean we shouldn't fight the good fight - for the reason that it deserves to be fought. Fraud should ALWAYS be countered whenver possible. I just don't see the issue as starkly as you do, in terms of the survival of credibility. Now, if we suddenly abandoned the sportive model, I'd be worried as ****!

That's just my two cents.

[Fei jiao]

I went to check out mcdojo.com and all I see is a page with a bunch of sponsored links. Am I missing something? Where's the articles you're talking about?

[David Jamieson]

this is one of those ressurected threads.

it's old and unlikely thatthe site is still of the same content.
I'm surprised it's still there with the comings and goings of .coms nowadays.

[Phrost]

www.bullshido.com

McDonald's lawyers took exception to the name and we let it lapse.