Gaun sao - Cultivating hand

[Neo]

I've noticed, having read Rene Ritchie's "Complete Wing Chun" book, that a number of the systems refer to gaun sao as "cultivating hand", although I have learnt it to mean splitting arm. Could some please explain the reasoning behind the word "cultivating" please?

as always, many thanks

[anerlich]

Rene's the guy to ask, but I always assumed it was because the movement of the arm resembles the movement of a scythe blade.

[Mr Punch]

That's what I understand too.

I have had it explained as a 'plough' movement too though this didn't make as much sense to me.

The ging is quite different to many other moves; more cutting than penetrating or more sweeping than sticky, if you prefer.

IMO, of course.

[S.Teebas]

The ging is quite different to many other moves; more cutting than penetrating or more sweeping than sticky, if you prefer.

I dont understand this?? Care to elobrate on what u actually do differently to generate this different 'ging'?

And why dont you want this movment to be penetrating? as soon as i disperce the force of my opponent enough that im not effected; i want to petetrate his structure and shake his foundations so he cant generate any more force. Why is it different? ..plz explain.

[Mr Punch]

The key word here is 'more'. I didn't say not to penetrate.

The most effective way I've been taught the low gaun is with a scything feeling as the name suggests. Have you ever used a scythe/sickle? If so, you'll know exactly what I mean; if not please ask again, and I'll try and be more helpful when I can!

The way I've been shown the high gaun has a more standard penetrative energy, like say, the pak.

edit: BTW, I can think of at least three different low gauns that I use regularly.

[kungfu cowboy]

Maybe the cultivation idea stems from a poetic interpretation of cultivation as ploughing a garden. Like you would use the kind of steely determination or intent whatever as one would have had to do with a plough back in the days before John Deere, when work animals were still no bigger than squirrels.

[kj]

Originally posted by Mat
That's what I understand too.

I have had it explained as a 'plough' movement too though this didn't make as much sense to me.

The ging is quite different to many other moves; more cutting than penetrating or more sweeping than sticky, if you prefer.

IMO, of course.

Those with a farming heritage may intuitively know that one function of a cultivator is to literally cut, furrow, or separate the ground, forming a trench or groove.

A cultivator will, to a degree, "penetrate" the earth, but will cut and separate it at the same time. This process of cultivation entails both downward and forward components. The metaphor is appropriate in form, motion, function, and result, with the centered-down-and-forward cleaving type of gan sau.

There is different interpretation of the gan sau movement, inclined to a more lateral and sweeping type of motion, for which similarities to a cultivator are less obvious. This may be the more well-known interpretation of gan sau.

Just some thoughts from a old farm-gal.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Maybe the cultivation idea stems from a poetic interpretation of cultivation as ploughing a garden. Like you would use the kind of steely determination or intent whatever as one would have had to do with a plough back in the days before John Deere, when work animals were still no bigger than squirrels.

I think you've got the idea. Even so, cleaving linear miles of soil, under a roasting sun, and without the aid of anything more than a small mechanical contraption demands energy conservation and solid determination. Not to mention tolerating those nippy little farm critters, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Mr Punch]

Done that! That's why I don't understand the energy reference of ploughing, which is a steady push/pull, overcommitted if applied to wingchun!

OK, I concede the conservation of energy and letting the tool do the work ideas, but otherwise it's not a good analogy.

Also, using an analogy related to the work of cultivation doesn't fit as well as one using the tool idea.

Just me.

[kj]

Originally posted by Mat
Done that! That's why I don't understand the energy reference of ploughing, which is a steady push/pull, overcommitted if applied to wingchun!

There are different types of plows, and plowing for different purposes. The kind I attempt to describe, e.g., for the preparation of seed furrows, is generally not concerned about pushing/pulling. In Wing Chun as well as the farming type, economy of motion, energy conservation, intentional follow-through, and an avoidance of over-commitment are essential.

A different idea of cultivation of plowing won't suit equally well. If a particular idea (e.g., of cultivation) is not helping, it's not worth getting bogged down over it, IMHO.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kungfu cowboy]

Caution is advised: This very topic sent the cavemen into the realms of madness during the very late early middle ages.

[yuanfen]

I dont use the "cultivating" hand term...assuming that we
are talking about the same thing---gaun-gaan.
A sweeping cutting label asa general label is good enough for me.
The actual motion is more important than the label that is put on it
and of course hands on correction is one of the better ways to learn it.
We distinguish between an outward motion gaan (hoi gaan sau)
and an inward motion (ngoi gaan sau). You can do some very good things with them specially when you combine gaan with something else with the other hand such as jaam. Many permutations and combinations with gaan.

[reneritchie]

Gaun (Geng in PinYin) is a character composed of Lei (a plow) and Jing (a divided field) to give the sense of plowing, cultivating, tilling, etc. a field. We actually had a discussion on the WCML a few months back about this, with several people with different farming experiences contributing, but in the end, while I personally don't feel the choice of term was haphazard (there are lots of ways to say "cut" or related terms in Cantonese: Jaam, Chit, etc. but it was this one chosen for this hand), I don't think any anology or poetic reference holds up if taken too far.

We chose "cultivate" for Complete Wing Chun because we had to choose one term and that seemed to have the layers and richness typical in Chinese characters.

Rgds,

RR

[kungfu cowboy]

Aren't there any explicit meanings in wing chun?

[yuanfen]

Explicit meanings in wing chun? Sure -depends on who you ask
and the context in which the meaning exists.. A real problem is that we are havinga net conversation- hopefully widespread interactive visual/video coversations will supplant our present limitations.
Words can have multiple layers of meanings- specially to native speakers.I depend on speakers whose language is primarily Cantonese for some insights. But for wing chun depth -the understanding of the feel of the motion and conveying it is the important thing. Thats why IMO its more important to pay close attention in detail to the actual teaching by masters of the art .
They work on capturing the correct motions rather than only literary meanings. Language helps with verbal communication but the guidance of the hand is the key and there can be translations and translations which may or may not capture the exact motion. Ploughing also can be seen as a form of cutting the earth. No problem with me if someone wants to use the English word as cultivating. Cultivating a garden for instance
can give a different image from cutting or ploughing the earth.
And if people dont depend on the character for plough- a subtle shift to a shovelling action can take place. And the word may not give a sense of the direction and the kind of energy in the motion.I enjoy using the Cantonese terms in wing chun but for meaning I go to the motion and try to explain it ina variety of ways both verbally, in demonstrating and in usage.