What do you owe your sifu/master/sensei?

[rogue]

"I understand the ideas od Wu De, but am not interested necessarily in archaic practices. I owe loyalty to X"

That quote from someone on one of the other boards got me thinking, what do we owe our instructors in the way of loyalty, respect and dedication?

For me I respect my TKD Master but I'm dedicated to the art he teaches not him. Loyalty is something deeper that I reserve for those who have earned it.

[stuff]

i owe him $$, well 2 days from now

[Fred Sanford]

I wouldn't study under someone who I didn't think deserved my respect. Loyalty and dedication are built over time, not instantly given.

[No_Know]

There are different places of learning. Some are courses at college. Some are a class at a recreation center, school, gymnasium, university, park...Some are in a building which's insides are filled with Stuff for learning or relevant to the martial art. There are probably different reasons people get an instructor. Chinese opera used to pay for children (supposedly). In China there was no money exchanged (in some cases). There was a bond or agreement of I will teach you my Kung-Fu and you will put me first in all~ things~. Later students were not so. And money was exchanged for lessons. I No_Know how they did it in Korea. Japan likely were told, do this...respect him....Go. And obeying was big in their society. Aligience was given to some one. Everyone was in the service of someone else, in Japan.

So (needle-and-thread), whether you give your loyalty seems to depend on if you have any Loyalty to give. A stereotypical American is self-centered, me, me, me. And for many, if I don't look out for me, no one will. This loyalty stuff seems Cultural. It depends on your up-bringing or how you live your life.

I think that my mind is set to Stereotypically (for me) Chinese ways. I could have none but my Sifu, until (s)he says otherwise. It is part of Kung-Fu (stereotypically (for me) to have a deep connection with the Sifu. We work together to further our own goals. He does h is/er job--watches me guides me. Looks out for my well-being, Has concern for my well-being. And teaches me what I Need, to learn h is/er Kung-Fu. My job is to Learn. To practice and get as much from the instruction as I might be able. And to be better than my Sifu. Yet, Humble about my accomplishments. And Still respect H im/er. Because, in Kung-Fu, there is no cieling. And no matter how much I might know (not necessarily literally), I No!_Know.

[Unstoppable]

$25 Aus and my Life!!!

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Did you learn from the art or from the Si Fu? It is straight foreward... of course you learned from your sifu. He spent the time to teach, guide and nourish you. In a traditional kwoon money from the student is only important for the overhead...what really counts from the student are items of the Spirit...such as caring, loyalty, courtesy, respect and honor to name a few. These are not archaic...but are qualities still as important today as they were in the past. Unfortuneately a number of todays students may have enrolled in a commercial school where money is the most important thing and there exist today (as I am sure in the Past as well) those students who think the only thing that is important is the art and to preserve it (and of course there are those students who are toally self centered and think only of themselves but use the "Icare for the art" ploy to help to make themselves look better). True the art is important, but you would not even have the art if your sifu did not take the time to teach it to you. Qualities of the Spirit are far more important to the student, sifu and the art than knowledge and fighting ability.

GHD

[yu shan]

Grateful, appreciative and the desire to take care of my Teacher!

[Cody]

1. honest dedication to, and respect for, the learning. This applies equally to the person who has the physical capability to master an entire system, as it does to those who cannot do this, but who have potential in what they can do.

2. basic respect for teacher, other students and self. This entails respect for the physical person, and feelings.
It's not putting on a pedestal. Honest teaching (teachers) should be respected for the work it took for them to achieve this level, and for being of service to students and community; in addition, for caring for the wellbeing of students (beyond the economics and trophy bearing capabilities). For a student, it's being an aware being, respecting and fostering that awareness in others in a cooperative setting in which everyone wishes for the success of their peers as well.

3. loyalty is a loaded topic that was discussed in a recent thread. I think that combining traditional views of loyalty within MA with the modern business of martial arts can trip people up. Even without that blip, blind obedience and strict hierarchy can work well in certain scenarios but not in others, as I have said before. It is a utopian framework and a social structure all in one. As such, the formula for erosion is already written into the equation as the opportunity for choice increases, and other factors change as well. This includes the leadership. Everything evolves.

Dedication to the arts and to one's development as a human being are Required. You need to believe what you are doing is right, and that you are learning to become what is right for you, or why are you doing this?
Dedication/devotion to a person is something that should be allowed to develop over time. Yet, the devotion, imo, is essentially to the Work. It is natural that this will spill over to those who most embody the work, but a division, a perspective, needs to remain for the good of all (imo).
That a student does not embrace some traditional ways, does not automatically indicate a lack of respect on the part of the student. At this point, I think it is partly just being careful, and a matter of seeking to maintain a certain level of autonomy. No amount of idealistic rhetoric can substitute for the reality of the necessity of a two-way street view of associations in Kwoon. It's more than I'll teach you some Kung Fu when you pay me, and I'll treat you more special cause you let me use your truck to transport the lion dance team.
When an adept sifu is teaching all in kwoon who are willing to work in a manner in accord with the art, which includes finding and developing their own true natures, in a measured and fair way (without shortcuts for a fast return), then one can speak of devotion to a person as well, for then we are talking of special friendship.

These are my views and feelings. I realize that people's opinions are based on their own background and experiences. That is all we know. So, I'm not saying that just because something doesn't work all the time, it can't work at all. I just don't see certain ways as necessarily a given at all times, or even most of the time in this less than perfect world.

Cody

[David Jamieson]

imnsho

you owe your teacher(s) acknowledgement that it was they who transmitted the knowledge and information of the art to you.

you owe them the effort it takes you to maintain and develop yourself with the art.

you owe them the sharing of what you have been taught combined with the above so that the art/knowledge will live on passed you and those who came before.


as an exercise, reverse the question...
i.e "what does your sifu owe you?"
peace

[Gold Horse Dragon]

The student came to the sifu/teacher to learn. The sifu owes the student nothing. Should the student be considered of good character by the sifu, the sifu will teach him within the boundaries of the students understanding and deserving to learn which is based on the students character, understanding and abilities and within this context the sifu would teach the student well. The sifu would also teach the student more than just the martial arts and if the sifu is trained in traditional Chinese medicine, he would also help to heal the student of injuries and/or health issues. This is not owed to the student, but rather the traditional sifu considers it his moral obligation and duty as passed on to him by his teacher. One of the great diservices to the martial arts in todays world is the attitude that the student is 'owed' something by the teacher - it is still the same self-centered attitude of the student and because of his attitude and belief system, that type of student just does 'not get it'
There have been a number of articles in vogue of what constitutes a 'good teacher', it is high time to rather consider what constitutes a 'good student'.
GHD

[David Jamieson]

Every coin has two sides and yet it is still but one coin.

The teacher is in my opinion never "above" the students. only "before".
Plenty of Teachers are ego motivated and self centered themselves. Some can recognize this and others fail to do so.
Students also do many things beyond the norm for their teachers. Sometimes over and above what they would do for their own family.

Any relationship between two people must serve both of them to make it worthwhile.
To serve and to be served are folds in the same cloth.

The teacher owes the student instruction in what the student is seeking instruction in without holding back. The Student owes the teacher his attention and dedication to the development of himself through the vehicle of the teachers instruction, which in turn came before the teacher and stands alone in that respect.

When the teacher witholds, he does himself and his student a great diservice. When the student witholds, it is the same result.
There can still be some fruition to the relationship, but the art will not suffer as much as that relationship. THe teacher will move on to his next student and the student will move on to his next teacher. That's the way it is and has always been in near every field of study particulalrly the Martial arts.

peace

[Excession]

Kung Leck has beaten me to the punch

I am not a martial arts instructor, I do give extra math lessons though.

Do I owe my student anything, yes. I owe him/her my full attention and abilities for the time they have payed me for. Even if I werent getting paid but agreed to give my time I would be obligated to deliver what I promised.

I do this with the understanding that the student will, in addition to paying me, participate fully in the lesson. So the student has a right to the tuition agreed upon but also a responsibility not to waste my time(not to mention their parents money). If I did it purely for money I wouldn't enforce the responsibility issue. Although if my student fails to apply themselves their failure might be blamed on me and my reputation would suffer. Therefore...

Instructors must teach to their full ability.
Students must learn to their full ability.
If either party neglects their responsibilities, the contract(I use the term loosely) between us is broken.

Students and teachers NEED each other(I cant teach a brick wall, neither can I learn from one). I am a teacher. He is the student. Neither is better than the other. Initialy both parties must have respect for one another, from then on respect may be gained or lost based on the actions of the parties. Isn't that how all healthy consenting relationships are initiated and maintained, through mutual respect?

Why would the martial arts differ?

[rogue]

That's the way I feel too Excession and Kung Lek. Because of family obligations the master of my school had to cut back personally training all of us. If I was dedicated to him rather than his vision of the art I would have been out of there, and we have lost some students because of his choice of family over students. What he did provide for us are good instructors to keep us learning between the times that he teaches.

A third question could be, what do we owe our fellow students?

[TjD]

he's probably the man i owe 3rd most (behind my parents)

from taking kung fu i've learned some of the most important lessons of my entire life

one of them being, if you want to be good at something - practice it, you have to put in the time

and on top of that, its a 4 times weekly source of peace of mind, and joy

as to how i can repay him, all i really got is to keep going to class, and praticing my butt off

[HuangKaiVun]

I owe nobody anything - and expect nothing from people either.

Soon I shall open my own school. Callous as it sounds, I only ask that people fork over the $$$ when it's time for tuition to be paid.

Respect and love and piety should be EARNED.