New Member

[I.M. Toast]

Greetings all:
I have been lurking in this forum for a while know, and I find it quite enjoyable and I hope to be able to pick everyone's brain for every piece of pertainant information that I can get.
Anyhow, I am located in the East San Francisco bay area, and I am currently learning Taijichuan, and have been doing so for about 3 weeks. I do enjoy it. However, there is a small caveat; I am learning this art at a Shaolin-Do studio, which doesn't seem to be anyone's favorite orgainzation here on the list.
I am not too concerned with that at the moment, because we (my wife and I) are learning what seem to be actual Yang style 24 and 108 movement forms. However, I am beginning to have doubts as to whether we will actually be able to apply what we learn in a fight situation.
So, for my first question to the forum: Roughly at what point should one expect to practice TJC moves in a sparring situation.

Thanks,

Toast.

[Hau Tien]

After 3 weeks, I wouldn't worry about applying anything to a sparring (or especially real) situation while learning an internal art.

People who study Muay Thai (and similar external arts) tend to have things that can be applied very quickly and early in the training (IE: A cut kick). Studying an internal art can take many years to learn how to effectively apply something. This is not because it is less effective than Muay Thai (Or the external arts), but because it takes longer to learn how to use the techniques in the way in which they must be used.

I know that sounds... odd... but it's the best way I can think of to put it into words. If anyone else can think of something to add, please feel free

[I.M. Toast]

Yes, Thanks for the reply!
I do understand that the internal arts take longer to implement, but I am merely curious as to when I should expect implementation training to begin. The course description that I have seen calls for learning the 24 and 108 forms, then some staff work, then on to some hseing-i forms, then a few bagua forms, etc. Their seems to be quite a bit of "form" practice (which I don't mind, I'm interested in learning about bagua and hsieng-i). At what point would I say, "Hey, wait a minute, shouldn't I be learning some implementation about now"?

I.M. Toast

[wushu chik]

Dude, you are in the vicinity of MANY MANY great masters, work with me here. What the H3LL are you doing at a Shaolin Do school? I could name TONS...Go study some real Tai Chi. And, at only 3 weeks, come on.....do you have any MA experience what so ever? You need your basics before you will ever learn how to apply it.


~Wen~

[Brad]

Maybe you should shop around at other schools to see how they do thing. You know, talk to some other teachers.

[I.M. Toast]

Greetings Wushu Chick:
Thanks for the response. Do I have any martial arts experience? Not much. Only about a year in TKD.
I think that I do understand that I need to learn the basics. I'm just trying to get an idea of what realistic expectations I should have.
And if you could, please give me the names or point me in the direction of a good internal master in the SF East Bay. I would appreciate it. I've looked in the phonebook. No dice. I've searched the internet and found a site representing someone who claims to be a master of Wu Taijichuan. He is a little distant, appointments are scheduled weeks in advance, and there was so much focus on the health benefits and none on martial technique that it scared me off.
I also tried to contact two local neijia message boards, so far with no reply.

Concerning Shaolin-Do, I have no particular loyalty to this enterprise. However, I do like and honor my instructor quite a bit, I am learning something of Taijichuan, and it is close enough that my wife will go with me. In a few months we will move on to bagua forms, at which time I hope I will have found an internalist master by then.

Thanks,

I.M. Toast

[I.M. Toast]

Brad:
Thanks for the suggestion. I actually have shopped around quite a bit. I eliminated all of the "harder" arts from my search, and checked into some of the "kung fu" shops near by (all that were truly local to me were questionable linage or a little too "aggressive" for me. My favorite line was " the carpet is red to remind us of the blood of those before us spilled on the battlefield".). So now I am where I am. It's not a bad spot, but I am looking for better.

I.M. Toast

[miscjinx]

I.M. Toast,


How long before implementation and practice of application is hard to determine.


I knew a pretty traditional tai chi teacher once that said all you do in his class is learn forms for the first year, depending how you are progressing he may teach some application in the second year.

I also know of teachers that class application and being a martial tai chi class, but all they ever learn are more forms and never actually do any application. Some have been doing it for 10 years and still don't know what they are doing.

My first tai chi class, we started to do application after about 6-months...and push hands after about 3 months. This is rare from what I have seen.

It is a wide range of possibility, and there isn't much of a standard. If you are still insisting on a "when I should expect implementation training to begin", then the standard is NEVER. You have to find a good teacher that know what they are doing, and it is usually a year or two (in my research) before a good teacher will typically teach application - application being a bit more than just saying this move is used to do this, I mean actual martial practice.

[Lincoln]

I was an istructor at the Shao Lin Do school in San Jose In 93 and 94 and I would highly recommend that you find a different Tai Chi teacher. You are absolutely right in thinking that they are about forms. If you want to learn allot of forms without function then stay where you are. If you want to develop real internal skills look elsewhere. I have heard good things about Bernie Langdon in Albany, I believe that his school is called "stillness in motion". There is also a good Wu style teacher at UC Berkeley, I do not know the specifics for him. Where abouts in the East Bay do you live? I live in S.F. and I could maybe meet with you to talk or you could e-mail me at lincoln@ihot.com.
I am only telling you all of this because I am still trying to get out of allot of the bad habits that I was taught at that school.

Lincoln

[SSgungfu]

I.M. Toast,

Let me just say you have a cool name. Very original, it makes me hungry.

It is easy for someone to decode the fighting techniques in the form (rollback, push, the palm strike and hook in singlewhip, etc) and try to implement them in a fight, but in order to learn real combat taichi skills, you need to be taught more then just a form. It involves pushhands practice, more importantly 2 man practice. You need to be able to sense your opponents energy and balance thru continual practice. You also learn about the jins (energys), how to apply fajing, etc etc etc. Its a bit more then just form work.

Although form work is usually the basis of practice at the beginning of your training, good teachers will touch on the above subjects and spark your interest with the techniques.

So you may not be proficient in using fajing when you punch, but at least you know your teacher is capable of it, and your on your path to something greater.

I dont know what your school is like though. Hopefully they touch on these subjects.

[Scarletmantis]

In my Ba Gua training we always cover applications right along side form. To learn the form is to learn the function as well. How is your intention going to be developed if you don't know what it is that you're supposed to be doing? How will your Chi flow properly if you don't know what the movement feels like martially? How are you going to defend yourself with movements you only practice in the air?

My advice is to look elsewhere for your training. That applies to ANYONE who is wasting thier time with a watered down martial art, or an antiquated, confucianistic teacher. Avoid ANYONE who says: "I won't teach you the secrets until you prove yourself.", or worse yet, "It takes ten years to learn to fight with this style.". Chances are they're just trying to cover up the fact that they don't know what the h@ll they're doing.

[uncle]

Man I wish I'd had your problem starting out .You're in KF heaven and don't even know it . First off look towards the water,see those big things that look like bridge towers ,follow them to where they meet the land then look under them,see the parks,be there on the weekends in the mornings,when the student is ready the teacher will appear.From what I understand there is more than one group that practice there. good luck to you, peace Bob

[Kumkuat]

There's also Zhang Xue Xinhttp://www.silkreeler.com/index.shtml

Terry Chan (somewhere in berkeley)

Tony Wong http://marina.fortunecity.com/victory/273/

Jin Taiyang http://www.jintaiyang.org/

and also
George Xu, Adam Hsu, etc.,

And in my opinion, the bay area is the Mecca for IMAs more than NYC and LA. Even though they have people like Li Tailiang and Tung Kai Ying.

[Scarletmantis]

I can vouch for both George Xu and Adam Hsu.

Adam will teach you how to fight for real using internal principles. I don't practice Baji Chuan, but I would if I lived closer to Adam. His Bagua is also very good. Adam Hsu is one of the most articulate and detail oriented teachers I've met (a must if you expect to master internal power). He'll never mince words and will expect nothing but the best from his students.

George Xu is probably one of the kindest and most flexible teachers I have ever met. Tell him what you hope to gain from your training and he will very likely put together a program designed to meet your specific needs. He's best known for his Chen Taiji (which is fantastic for martial applications by the way), but I fell in love with his Ba Gua Zhang. Look him up and you will be richly rewarded.

[I.M. Toast]

Wow. Thank you all for all of the advise and the information on leads to qualified neijia instructors. None of them is located in the East Bay, but I guess that is just something that I am going to have to live with.
Man, do I hate crossing the bay. Anyone who lives in this area knows why.

Anyhow, contact information for Adam Hsu was easy to find. This was not so for George Xu. A web search shows a number of seminars that he is giving around the country, but I can't seem to find any local lcontact information. Does he have a local studio?

Thanks.

I.M. T.

P.S. Bernie Langan was suggested to me on another forum. Has anyone of you heard of him?