Long Fist is hypocrisy!!!!

[Crimson Phoenix]

OK...this thread was inspired by the "long fist sparring" question, and since I feel a little controversial, I figured out I'd make a whole thread of it, and not just an answer. And since I was at it, I came up with a title that would draw attention hehehehhe
And before 99% of you get all wild, let me add that I have trained Long Fist for 5 years (YMAA) and that I intend to continue
But that's not the point, here's the kick in the beehive: I saw Li Mao Ching, student of Han Ching Tang, in action a couple of times...when he teaches long fist (Nanjing Central KuoShu Chang Quan), he demands very long and low positions, with ample and large movements. But when he shows applications or jokingly spars, he does high stances (I know he can go low, he's still very impressive for his age), but most important, he uses very short and harsh moves, tasting very different than the wide and flowing moves he uses when performing solo. Long Fist kicks high it is said, Li used mainly low stop kicks (and I won't complain, I'm a big fan of these since my savate days) or groin slap kicks (side cut to the ribs was the highest I seen). I'm convinced it's not an age issue, he can kick high and go low. Here's the point: is long fist practical and applied per se? or is it a good method of forming the body BUT which needs major adjustments to be used in combat?? Or is it just a matter of personal preference from master Li (he's not the only one I seen doing that, which makes me doubt)??
When we train white crane, we use it as is, no adjustements, nothing, we are as low (white crane jings simply do not feel the same if you stay high), we hit the same way etc...but with long fist I often heard "do it low, so you can do it better when high" or "in training kick high, in combat kick low" etc....
So what's your opinion on this? Is it a real question, or a non-issue???

[SifuAbel]

You have partly answered the question. Sometimes forms are practiced with extra lowness to work the strength of the stance. Although it doesn't mean that you couldn't go low in an application if you saw fit. Unlike forms, applications don't need to maintain the low base all the time, but just might end there. And the term kick high well to kick low easy is common. A cool thing to do is to tape high level people sparring, and then slow it down. You see the stance work, even if its high. You recognize movements that might go unnoticed at full speed. You see the techniques trained in their more natural sublte forms.

Another quirk of some kung fu that was taught or practiced publicly, such as shaolin, is that the form represented the dynamic but sometimes not the actual shape of the technique. Where you were still working the right muscle groups and postions but had little alterations to protect the actual technique from being discovered by rivals. If you notice today, UFC fighting has mutated greatly because everyone knows what everyone is liable to do.

[Crimson Phoenix]

GREAT, keep the good material like this one coming!!
Thanks for your answer!
The story about shaolin practiced in public really rang a bell: it reminds me of how white crane used to hide (now it's not a secret anymore) its phoenix eye fist by practicing fists closed all the time, and reserving the phoenix eye only for actual combat. When there were watchers of the fights, the phoenix eye would even be done at the last second before reaching target, the immediately clenched into a regualr fist during the pull back of the jing, so that people would only see a regular fist strike...

[HuangKaiVun]

The way I see it, a lot of the chang quan moves are designed to train the principles behind the moves.

Instead of doing a move simply to work in a combat situation, they extended moves so that it would work the body and mind in a way that would make the person a better fighter.

In real fighting, the elements of toughness and athleticism are more important than sheer technical ability. I would say that changquan done properly does a very nice job of making the practitioner more athletic and mentally strong.

[GLW]

The saying in Chinese tranlates "Train low, use high"

For northern fist styles such as Changquan, Zhaquan, etc... you train extension and lowness in stances, large movements in arms and blocking to get the strength in the legs, the flxibility in the muscles and ligaments, the connection of the movement to the entire body.

You kick high to get the speed and flexibility. A high kick is harder and takes more muscle, flexibility, and stamina to do over and over than a low kick.

Once you train all of that, it is easy to bring it down a notch. kick low to middle...shorten the movement but keep the body connection that lets you generate power...use the legs in higher stances for mobility at a faster pace since you are higher. And, since you are used to being low, rising up makes it easier on your muscles and stamina just when you need all of the strength and stamina you can get...and you are nervous anyway...so you can use the rest to calm the mind.

Only problem is that not too many teachers explain the transition from training to use.

[northstar]

This issue really has been covered a thousand times here, hasn't it. It seems to me that people confuse form training with real shadow boxing.

[SevenStar]

I think there are a couple of issues:

1. what has already been said about the training - you train the different variables so thay you may use either in a fight. if you can kick high, then you can easily kick low, but the reverse is not true. the same goes for stances.

2. longfist is used as a basic style by many, meaning they have training in other styles also. they may blend what they find useful in their other styles into their longfist.

3. modern wushu has had a great influence on longfist in recent years, and some schools may tend to focus more on wushu (I'm guessing at this one)

4. personal preference. For example, from what I hear, there is a verson of gong li chuan that emphasizes grappling. also from what I hear, the ymaa version advocates striking.

[norther practitioner]

I'd have to agree to a very large majority of what has already been said. Practicing chang chuan with its intended length over a period should help practitioners develop a full range of application it their movements. Some teachers like to emphasize punching or striking "through" an object...thats where this comes from. You can look at it mystically in projecting your chi, or in actuallity when you are in a closer range still projecting that punch through the target. This works with kicking as well, plus the added benefit of the flexibility. Being able to kick high can be useful, whether you believe it to be practical or not depends. The front kick is a good example I feel to how to look at kicking. I like to try to use the front kick (like the one in tam tui) almost as a jab with the foot so to speak. It comes up as high as the time situation warrents, to be able to do above the waist with power can be very useful in used in combo, or alone. This is a little babblish, sorry.
I guess what I am trying to say, chang chuan is really hypocritical it is just (hopefully) practicing kung fu with the intent of being able to use a full range.

[fa_jing]

But what about training short movements to become good at short movements? Is there anything specific you do to know how to shorten the movement or does it just come out in sparring?

-FJ

[norther practitioner]

Thats the projection.....You hit your targetted area, but to transfer the energy, you are trying to hit through the target. Kind of like breaking, have you ever broken a board or brick by just trying to hit it hard? Doesn't work as well as trying to hit through the target. Since a lot of the strikes are straight, like a jab, or maybe a upper cut or spear hand, you can use these techniques at any range because they travel a straight line. The circular blocks and parries and such, I like to think of it in the light that the movement is the same, just change the radius of the arc by changing the length of your arm (bending at the elbow) or that you should be able to get similar results by the same motion, just blocking with a different part of the arm (looks like blocking with the hand, but if in a closer range than maybe same motion blocks with the forearm).

[fa_jing]

Regarding the blocking - there shouldn't be any guesswork involved. Do you do partner drilling that shows you how to use each block, and in combination? That teaches you the feel and positioning and range of movement, hands-on? I am thinking maybe you two-man set training serves this purpose?

[mantis108]

I don't train Long Fist (the style) per se, But I train Long Fist (forms) nontheless as many of Kung Fu systems do in the pass and today. IMHO, there is a proper protocol to train forms. Quite frankly, Morden Wushu has lot that altogether. Classic Kung Fu styles still use the protocol. It is harder to find them nowadays but they are out there.

To use good KF techniques during sparring is like trying to make a wish upon seeing a shooting star. By the time you recognize there is a shooting star, it is gone. So you hardly be able to make that wish. It is that hard. But is it impossible? Not really. All you have to do is train.

"4. personal preference. For example, from what I hear, there is a verson of gong li chuan that emphasizes grappling. also from what I hear, the ymaa version advocates striking."

As for this comment by SevenStar, Gongliquan used to be a system (one form system) of its own. The earliest record of the system is during the earliest Ching Dynasty (1700s). The form itself has both conditioning and fighting functions. It has all the 4 categoroes of techniques which are Da, Ti, Na, and Shuai. In the older version there were certain "ground" moves (i.e. Ground, Mount and Pound) . It is even mentioned in the sonnet (Kind of a manual) that's accompanying the form. Like Taizu Changquan, the Gongliquan was adopted and fused into other systems. Many changes have been made. For some unknown reasons, most people teach the Gongliquan with mostly Da and Ti applications only (mostly not even follow the flow of the form). In the Jing Wu Assoc. version, which later absorbed into the Taiji Praying Mantis system by Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai, there are the all 4 categories of techniques plus the ground ones. Also close range body weapons and techniques (ie, shoulder, elbows, Knees, and clinch) are in the form. There are also drills from the form to properly train it so that the flow of the form, which essentially is the flavor of the "style", is retained. That means you can fight the way you trained (and mind you the ability of the individual is addressed since the form is designed as a conditioning form); hence, looking like fighting with Kung Fu. As I understand it, that's the same with lianbuquan which I have seen but not trained in. So it is IMHO that although it seems it is a personal preference to emphasis on a certain aspect of applications; however, given the evidences, it would seem to be more a question of how the form (or the system) was transmitted through the lineages. Instruction is important.

Mantis108

[norther practitioner]

fa_jing,
I wouldn't call it guess work. Just realization of a multitude of applications to the same movement, or slight adaptations. As far as two man sets this is precisely (sp?) the purpose it serves, along with all the added benefits. I like to see newbies (and self proclaimed experts) do a lot of two man stuff, real simple, but just to really get the hang of it, to see where this stuff comes from, and to get used to people throwing punches at their face (lol).

[fa_jing]

"Guesswork" -- forget about it, just drawing out your response. Well, forms are praticed in the air, right? They can be useful in teaching your body how to move, but if you don't know what the technique is for, you can't visualize. Visualization is the key to achieve maximum benefit from form practice. Otherwise, you really are just waving your hands in the air. Dancing is good for your body, but it's not Kung Fu. I just remember that I struggled and struggled to get things right when I was a beginner, but when I became confortable with the two-person application of a drill, all of a sudden my solo practice became much more beneficial. I found out what the true structure and energy of the movements were, and I was able to visualize using them in battle. I don't always visualize an attack when I run solo drills or forms, but when I do, everything comes out crisper and with better energy.

The point of all this is that the two person application shouldn't come too far behind learning the drill or form in a solo context. Because if you don't have the two-person application, it diminishes the value of the solo work.

-FJ

[norther practitioner]

I agree whole hartedly.