Long Fist is hypocrisy!!!!

[HuangKaiVun]

Great question, fa-jing.

The idea I got behind Longfist is that an extended punch in a set can be a long punch, a medium range punch, or a short close punch.

However, a short punch really can be nothing but a short punch. At least that's the way it was in the OTHER styles I studied.

Because changquan tends to be a style that seeks to be all-encompassing, their notion seems to be that by training the one long punch they are also allowing for the possibility of that punch being shortened depending on the circumstance.

I've seen all sorts of blocking drills in changquan, but nothing I've seen or done is as effective as getting into the sparring ring and getting HIT. And usually when I DO get hit, it's often (not always) because I didn't do something the way the form told me to.

The ring is where kung fu becomes REAL.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantis108
As I understand it, that's the same with lianbuquan which I have seen but not trained in.
Mantis108

As I understand it, the lian bu chuan form came first. It had techniques many consedered to be very effective, and a style was created, based on the form.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Seven, I agree. Whether in YMAA or in the long fist school of the sorely missed Chang Su Yao that I have seen, Lian Bu Quan comes first and before Gong Li.
However, in YMAA we consider Lian Bu like a good starter for stances, mobility (weight and stance shifting) and linking techniques, but that's about it. Gong Li is considered like some big exercise for your legs, usage of hips to issue power, and issuing power in general. Mind you, we learn the applications for both forms, and not only the obvious first level applications but we do not really consider these forms as "combat forms", rather solid foundations for good gong fu. It's just that as Dr Yang says "True Long Fist starts with Yi Lu Mai Fu and Er Lu Mai Fu" (the two forms coming next in our curriculum).

[Daredevil]

This may be going slightly OT (maybe it could have warranted a thread of its own .. naah), but ...

SifuAbel wrote:

the form represented the dynamic but sometimes not the actual shape of the technique.

This, I think, should be emphasized.

Forms often teach the dynamics and tne principles of the style. Sometimes, it is easy to not see this and get caught up chasing techniques within a stranger form.

I think this is one of the main reasons form training gets critisized so much. At least for me, I've had to develop a certain skill of reading my forms, to isolate and see the principles of the style from them. It is not something that you can immediately accomplish.

Visualization is certainly good IMO, but that's working on the techniques again. The techniques are better worked in pair training and sparring.

Extract the principles from the forms and drill them to make them yours. That's how I see form training.

This is also something I don't think many of the martial artists who criticize CMA understand.

[fa_jing]

If you always practice the movements long in the form, how does one limit the tendancy to overextend himself?

[GLW]

One of the goals of training the extension is to tap into the natural elasticity of the human body. Borrowing the energy of the previous technique to slingshot the next technique...a whipping of the body with full power that goes through the waist.

This is achieved first in the long moves...but can then be done in the shorter ones. The limiting is NOT done in form. It can't really be done that way.

It is done with supplemental training with targets, bags, moving two man drills, etc.... But many do not know or apply these training methods

[GeneChing]

The exaggeration of moves in forms practice crosses into an interesting issue I've always had with the so-called street fighting or no-holds-barred skills. Every game bars a hold. Nobody allows for biting or eye-gouging. Why? Well, that's rather obvious, I should hope. But if you've ever in a street fight, those are common techniques. Take it from someone who has actually been bitten in a fight, and witnessed at least a dozen of my friends get bitten. And, coincidentally, I countered with an eye gouge when I was bitten.
There is always a separation between real fighting and training. Certainly some training methods are more reality-based, but none are really real. Nothing replaces being in real combat on the street with a stranger. Those of you who've been there know. It's nothing like sparring. It's nothing like forms. In order to train for those situations, we must have some sort of compesation that does not compromise our safety and the safety of our partners while still retaining the essence of the fight. The reality-based people ban bites and eye gouges. The forms guys, well, there's not even a physical opponent so compensation happens by making the combinations more extreme. When you think about it, forms have to have the most most extreme compensation since there's no one there. In theory, you make an extreme advanced kick in practice in hopes that you'll be able to do a much lesser version of the same kick in combat.