Question for the day

[fa_jing]

What does it take to develop the flexibility required to be a masterful Wing Chun kicker? Not just an effective WC kicker. It seems that especially the hip and ankle must be loosened.
-FJ

[old jong]

But I find very helpful and true to the system to kick the dummy at the "normal" Wing Chun distance. We are not looking for big TKD or Muay Thai types of kicks anyway!
So,let the kicks help your hands!...

[fa_jing]

I mean like being able to hook the other guy's kick with your foot, then kicking a pressure point with an angled kick. I mean like being able to snap the other guy's knee joint by hitting his foot from underneath at the end of his front kick like in "warriors 2" These movements require a high degree of flexibility.

We have some specialized stretching exercises that we do, like putting your foot up on a high bench, turning it out (rotating the thigh) and bending head to knee, another one you turn it out even more but bend the knee, so that the outside of your foot is laying flat on the bench, and bend your torso towards your ankle.

Any others? Will Wing Chun kicking drills alone develop this kind of flexibiilty?

[old jong]

Well!...Do you want to do Wing Chun or imitate some movie stunts?...
There are schools for movie stunts and others teach Wing Chun!

[fa_jing]

In the movies they combine other styles with Wing Chun, but alot of it is real WC. I don't know the full capabilities of Wing Chun kicking, but I know enough to know that it contains some techniques that require a high degree of flexibility. Even the techniques that I have studied already, I cannot execute them all correctly. I'm still making gradual progress to be able to side kick properly without pivoting. I definitely have a very restricted range and effectiveness with the lotus kick (inside-outside kick).

Also, I believe there are different levels to the peng tui (raised knee defense). I currently study the method where you hang the lower leg straight down as you deflect an incoming kick, and you can counter-kick from there. But there are some other methods, for instance William Chueng turns his hip over as he does this. Also there are a lot of variations between the Wing Chun lineages and it wouldn't surprise me if some hooking action can be done with the foot here.

Maybe someone can speak to the high-level possibilities of Wing Chun kicking here.

-FJ

[kungfu cowboy]

Even though you are speaking in terms of flexibility, which might give the opinion that you are talking about high or fancy kicks, you mean as applied to close-range kicks, right?

[fa_jing]

Flexibility here refers to kicks executed at chest height or below, especially low kicks that require bending at the hip, rotation of the thigh, a particular ankle position, or overall flexibility to intercept his kick and kick him back fluidly. Kicking from all angles but low-to-medium. Again, for someone who has mastered WC kicking (usually somewhat secretive/non-published area of the art), what are the traditional drills that are used to create flexibility in the kicker? I know there's a kicking dummy, that would surely help, as well as the kicking drills in the air and the kicks on the wooden dummy. I have only done the preset Chi gerk drill, I don't know if there's a more advanced version? What I don't see, is any swing kicks like you see practiced in Northern Shaoling, Karate and TKD. So what are the ways that WC increases flexibility of the leg muscles and joints? SLT on one leg?
Anything else?

[yuanfen]

Fajing- regarding legs. Even though wing chun uses hand motions rather than legs from an initial observation...wing chun is very rich in kicks. Kicks, footwork and turning and stepping are all inter-related. You just have to be attentive to issues of stability when kicking. In practice you can kick high for devlopment if you want to depending on your own limitations and i have some...though for application you play it safer and lower.
For kicking, hooking and other development...do good front kicks
in the air- as many as you can build upto... develop kicking combinations also in the air. Dont worry about power when kicking in the air just like air punches...that will keep you from tightening up. Dont worry too much about the hips despite Bruce Lee. In the harmonies... wing chun is more about the elbows and knees in motion. I have my students do lots of leg drills for leg flexibilty for wing chun kicks. TKD kicks are different and require a different kind of flexibilty..

[TjD]

lately i've been training the kicks a lot, and i still need a bit of flexibility i've talked to my sifu about this and basically what it came down to is if you want the flexibility for the wing chun kicks, do them, do them often, and do lots of them

that will open up your hips and give you the flexibility you need
it's very similar to when you begin wing chun and your upper body is all tense, i think a lot of it is just learning to keep your hips/legs/lower body relaxed just like you keep your upper body relaxed - the best way to fix the upperbody being tense was to practice punches and do chi sau; its the same with the legs: practice kicks and chi gerk

even after a few weeks of doing a couple hundred kicks a few times a day (morning noon night, whenever im bored), i can already feel the difference in my leg flexibility

just have to keep up the hard work


travis

[Chum Kil]

Good answer Yuanfen. What I learned so far is a few kicking combos, and stretching the hip flexors. We kick into the air for explosion only and for warming up prior to WC drills. Sifu has taken out a few hand techniques and kicks for these warmups, which also have been taken out of the forms. This also helps the student with the forms, when the student gets to one of these sections, he/she already has done this part and just needs to get familar with the new part. As far as I know we do not do Chi Gerk. I believe the footwork and kicking combos replaces the Chi Gerk.

[fa_jing]

Thanks, I agree with everyone who said that the key to kicking development is to kick lots. I know that when I have been able to put this kind of work in, I have definitely felt improvement in hip flexibility and general leg flexibilty. Do you feel specialized static stretching is necessary as well, or will the standard touch your toes, do the splits be sufficient? Actually I do a little Yoga as well, but I'm curious what instructors like Yuanfen have their students do here.

[S.Teebas]

I agree with everyone who said that the key to kicking development is to kick lots.

First you should work out how arms move, then notice the relationship between arms and legs. Actually i think you can learn alot about your legs through your arms. I agree with who suggested 1 leged SLT to help improve kicks.

[anerlich]

An oft-neglected part of flexibility development for kicking is increasing the flexibility of the internal and external rotators of the hips, as well as the flexors, extensors and adductors.

I believe slow kicking, with/without ankle weights has improved my kicking abilities markedly.

Full power/speed kicks in the air are generally regarded as a bad idea due to the potential for joint injury. If you want to kick hard, kick a bag or dummy.

I find I'm spending more time on yoga for flexibility and core strength, interspersed with some RMA-style shinbox and squat exercises which have greatly improved the articulation in hips, ankles and knees. Yoga doesn't have to be all static positions and breathing, some of the sequences can be quite physically demanding and develop active rather than static flexibility.

A lot of Wing Chun kicks involve a dexterity in moving the various joint of the legs in concert, in spiralling and circular as well as straight lines, a dexterity which most untrained individuals do not have. One of my teachers said you baically want to be able to use your legs as if the were another pair of arms. The same is true in BJJ, FWIW.

I'm still making gradual progress to be able to side kick properly without pivoting.

Can you elaborate? Personally I've always believed the power in the sidekick to come from the alignment and hip movement the pivot provides, and that without the pivot you don't have a side kick but some sort of bstd-ised front kick. Just my opinion, please correct me if you think I'm off base.

for instance William Chueng turns his hip over as he does this.

Can you elaborate? I'm from that lineage and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[EnterTheWhip]

Kicking.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by anerlich

Can you elaborate? Personally I've always believed the power in the sidekick to come from the alignment and hip movement the pivot provides, and that without the pivot you don't have a side kick but some sort of bstd-ised front kick. Just my opinion, please correct me if you think I'm off base.

OK, depends on what you're using the sidekick for and where it is coming from. I favor the use of both the pivoted and unpivoted side kick, and the unpivoted kick streches the hips, and will help you stay more upright with your pivoted kick, assuming that you are not pivoting 180 degrees away like a TKD guy. Yes, in order to fully utilize the buttocks muscles you need the pivoted kick which uses the opposite direction of circular motion of the hip of the base leg, from the unpivoted kick. When I say unpivoted, I mean in practicality a 90 degree angle of the standing foot from front. This is useful for a check kick with the front leg(no time to pivot, ) also you can throw a really powerful rear leg sidekick by first opening up the front foot, then pulling your knee through and kicking in one motion. To pivot past 90 degrees with you base foot here messes up your rooting for the kick. Actually, it's the exact same motion as the rear-leg front kick which my old Chueng-style instructor taught me, only the lead hip has to be turned over and the joint compressed. Also, in the unpivoted version of the kick you can stay more upright and move forward and follow up with either hand. The power can be generated from another source: your forward movement, much like our punches where you hit with the force of your whole body. The unpivoted kick is basically more compact and I consider it to be the higher level kick.

Originally posted by anerlich

Can you elaborate? I'm from that lineage and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Okay, when we block a kick with our legs, the lower part of the leg hangs straight down perpendicular to the floor and the incoming kick is guided to the right or left. I haven't seen the Chueng-style method in person, but my sifu was describing how he saw GM Chueng do it in a seminar. Apparently he was rotating at the hip so that the lower leg was at about a 45 degree angle with the floor. This is consistent with what I saw Sifu Joe Sayah demonstrate in a magazine called "Martial Arts legends presents Kicking." He blocked a kick with the lower leg at an angle (foot out, knee in) and followed up with a high round kick, which seemed quite natural from this position. While we tend to follow up with any one of the following from our raised leg block position: stomp, front, or side kick, all usually to the opponent's base leg. It seemed like the stomp kick with the front foot turned out would be difficult from the postion Sifu Joe Sayah was assuming. Yet I could see the use of it. Actually, in the movie "Warriors 2" which I mentioned before, the man playing Leung Jan would perform this leg check with the lower leg at an angle to the floor in the other direction (foot in, knee out), similar to the position your legs are in when you are sitting cross-legged on the floor, although not quite so extreme. I don't know if this is a form of Wing Chun or if it was an add-on for the movie.
-FJ