Question for the day

[yuanfen]

Fajing- Do you have to "block" a kick?

[TjD]

yf- sure you gotta block a kick! just like you block all the punches that come at you right?

you especially have to make sure you use your hands to hard block those roundhouse kicks to your head/chest, if not your in a lot of trouble!

[fa_jing]

"Okay, when we block a kick with our legs, the lower part of the leg hangs straight down perpendicular to the floor and the incoming kick is guided to the right or left"

That defines my sporadic reversion to the deeply embedded use of the work "block"

It is usefull to learn to block kicks, just as it is usefull to learn to block punches. Kicks generally can be avoided with footwork a bit more easily then punches, which are faster. The advantage when you guide/restrain/redirect/block is that you are establishing contact with your opponent, restricting his motion from a calculated position, and can influence his actions with your own energy/force, which is an aim of our style. I find for instance that when I aim able to block a punch, I know how to move from that postion because that's what we practice. From there I can often trap or shift my arms and land a punch. Also punching from the "block" position directly, so important. I haven't acheived the simluataneous block and punch in sparring. But I definitely have blocked with my leg and landed a punch, and other wise engaged up top. Yes, it's fighting on one leg, but so's he. Legs vs. legs, arms vs, arms, ever heard of it? Oh, I guess that's footwork only vs. legs ??????

[anerlich]

To pivot past 90 degrees with you base foot here messes up your rooting for the kick.

I'm not so sure. If your foot is at 90, the reactionary force is going to be moving straight across your foot. If it's at 180, I think you actually have much better control over your balance, though I would agree recovery definitely takes longer.
Different philosophy I guess. You're looking (I think) to stay more upright and close and punch, I'm looking for a longer range kick that allows me to strike while staying out of counterpunching range.

He blocked a kick with the lower leg at an angle (foot out, knee in)

Right, I've seen that mag, though it was a long time back and I don't remember it too well. My first instructor, who trained with Cheung Sigung in the late 1960's, use to use that or something very similar to deflect a kick to the outside, the angle of the lower leg provides a lifting and dispersing effect, providing extra space to, in his case, slip in a low line kick, like a shin kick to the kicking leg. I would imagine a low stomp kick would work from there OK too, though one would need to be more accurate.
With the shin inclined the other way, was the incoming kick deflected to the inside or the outside? Used to the inside, this is a pretty standard crane-style sweep, the ankle and instep also usable to provide extra control. Side kick to the supporting leg is a standard follow up. The similar technique is in the standard predetermined chi gerk drill we practice.

[fa_jing]

Right, in the movie it was a block to the inside, and the shin and ankle/foot used to control as you stated. It wouldn't surprise me if the actor in this case had been influenced by white crane, since in one case he followed up the leg block/catch) with a jumping crescent kick.

In the magazine I mentioned, individuals from TWC, WT, and YKS all demonstrated the leg blocks and counters with minor variations, and from my sifu who learned under Yip Man's descendants we practice these as well (as well as a counter to the counter kick!) . In my old 7* praying mantis class, I saw Master Kwan demonstrate a different sort of leg block against a front kick, where he stood side-facing and managed to pick up the kick sliding against the side of his leg, it was quite impressive. So it is a tactic that spans across martial arts, FWIW.

-FJ

[Mr Punch]

My sifu (not from William Cheung's line) has shown us a kick deflection like the one you describe fajing. It's for when you are late or you need more stability in your deflection.

Of course, the ideal is to kick straight up the centreline or straight to the post leg, but as you said the angle for a post leg kick is improved by this angling outward (your knee still has the centre), if they are attempting to occupy the centreline.

He likens another use of it to the bong sau: when you roll a bong under your opponent's arm to expose his armpit and side, or to take his centre and unbalance him or turn his corner. Similarly, it gives you a naturally powerful structure when you raise your knee on centre, with your foot out and it (your knee) slips slightly beneath your opponent's rising leg.

That was a terrible description all round! My apologies: it's late and I'll try again sometime!

maybe not... I think anerlich's post covered it... bugger!

[fa_jing]

Mat: is that what Bon Gerk is?? I never figured out what our standard terms mean when applied to the legs. But I have heard of Bon Gerk, jut gerk, tan gerk, etc.

-FJ

[stuff]

I'm having a bunch of trouble with my WC sidekick. I'm used to the TKD sidekick since thats what I used to do. I feel a major lack of power. Any suggestions?

[yuanfen]

stuff-

do a lot of chor ma- chum kiu turning. Wing chun side kicks
use a different set of alignmnets from tkd.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by stuff
I'm having a bunch of trouble with my WC sidekick. I'm used to the TKD sidekick since thats what I used to do. I feel a major lack of power. Any suggestions?

quote:
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To pivot past 90 degrees with you base foot here messes up your rooting for the kick.
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I'm not so sure. If your foot is at 90, the reactionary force is going to be moving straight across your foot. If it's at 180, I think you actually have much better control over your balance, though I would agree recovery definitely takes longer.

[...]

OK guys. I, like stuff, studied TKD back in my teens. It was very difficult to adjust to the WC sidekick. Basically, the power comes from the forward momentum of your body + the horizontal stomp of the leg, the way to generate this power is to get your body moving forward, like with the exchange step (bring your rear foot to your front then kick with lead leg). Or, by kicking from the rear leg with momentum. If you are straining to get the correct hip position, it will take away the power of the kick, so you may have trouble at first. Also remember that there is a version of the kick without much power or body movement that is used more for checking/bothering. In answer to Anerlich, because your momentum is moving forward, that counter acts the backwards force created by Newton's third law. Again I draw the parallel to a front kick - in the front kick, your base foot does not point back, yet you should not fall over when you kick something solid, because you perform the kick with forward momentum. In practicality, I rarely acheive the 90 degree placement of the base leg, more like 100+ degrees, but it is a goal I work for. There is another version that I do which is at about 125 degrees back, and more lean back in the direction of the base foot, this will take you out of range of the opponent's punches and is less committed. Should have used that one yesterday: I went for a side-kick with sloppy form and my sifu sidestepped it and rang my bell with a whipping punch. Remember that each kick has it's use, one of my goals with the unpivoted kick is to be able to engage the opponent with my arms, from a sitting horse (side-on) stance and just lift up the rear foot and kick - meaning that the base foot is going to be at less than 90 degrees from the opponent. My Sifu told me once that TKD and Karate have specific angles that they strive to kick from, while in CMA kicks come from any angle. Basically I want to be able to throw kicks in a continuum from outwardly turned front kick to inwardly turned front/side mix to a fully pivoted TKD kick (also called Tiger's tail kick in some lineages.)

Another major use of the unpivoted side kick: low targets. You won't find as much trouble with this. Let's say you've just executed one of the aformentioned leg blocks. For decent stability, your base leg is going to be about 50-55 degrees from front. If you follow up with a low sidekick without setting your leg down, you don't want to pivot from there, except maybe slightly. You may find that your kicking foot isn't exactly parallel to the ground - doesn't matter if it points slightly up, as long as the contact area is correct.

P.S. I still find the ol' step-behind sidekick from TKD to be a good method of delivering a pivoted sidekick. The only way I've modified it is to not place my foot down a full 180 degrees back, since I no longer practice this way.

P.P.S. Using a TKD sidekick is like walking around with the biggest, heaviest gun. While sometimes what you want is a lighter, concealable, easier to draw, fast gun that still packs a decent punch, and you won't get it caught in a narrow passageway. My apologies for a crappy analogy but I hope you get the point.

Just my opinions!!
-FJ

[anerlich]

P.P.S. Using a TKD sidekick is like walking around with the biggest, heaviest gun. While sometimes what you want is a lighter, concealable, easier to draw, fast gun that still packs a decent punch, and you won't get it caught in a narrow passageway. My apologies for a crappy analogy but I hope you get the point.

I think it was a good analogy.