Who would win in a Fight a Chinese Swordsman or a Samuari

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well, duh, the guy who practices BJJ will win the swordfight.

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Stacey
bamboo and padding?


Give a kendo 2nd dan a boken and he'll kill you with it.

Maybe, but In Japan there was a tesst where they gave kendoka a shinken (live blade) and most could not cut with it doing tameshigiri. (where you cut through a standing soaked tatami mat) Lets see a kendo ka vs a Katori shinto guy. Katori Shinto whould cut off a leg (legs are illegal in kendo).

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by GeneChing

FWIW, the Japanese do have jian, they just don't practice it anymore. It was a predecessor of the katana, fresh out of China.

We do train sometimes with it in the Bujinkan it is called a ken. In one of Hatsumi Sensei's videos shows how the same techniques changes when using the ken, tachi and the katana.

[Liokault]

Cipher.


The japanese swords were not really all that great compared to western and chinese swords.

Both western and chinese swords men had at least as good blades as japanese and ofton better. The real differance is in the worshiping os swords amongst the japanese.

All the technology avaliable to the samurai was around in china at the same time and I belive much of what the japanese used was first developed in china.

Even if the chinese could not make swords to the standard of the japanses (whice I doubt) they offton imported large numbers of swords from japan.


And the thing about cutting though swords with a Katana....thats just plain stupid.
When ever 2 swords clash there will be a chance of one shattering the other. There are many storys of broken samurai swords out there so they can not be all that great.

Also any sword MADE to cut though metal would be very impractical in many other situations.

[GeneChing]

shinbushi: Really? Fascinating. I've never heard tell or seen any footage of anyone practicing it. How does it compare to Kendo/Iaido/or Batto Jistu? Do they play a live blade? How odes it compare to Jian?

[Gigante]

Have you guys ever seen a real Iaidoka in action, I wonder? The chinese guy would have no chance, he would fall down dead before he had a chance to draw his sword.
The fight would be like:
Samurai: "Hello"
Chinese guy: "Hel... OUCH!"
Chinese guy falls down, blood everywhere...
Samuai standing with arms crossed...
Chinese guy: "What the hell happened, you didn't move! How could you kill me?"
Samurai: "I am Samurai."

Anyway, a Ninja would kill them both. Ninjas are totally sweet. He would just wail on his guitar until both the Samurai and the Chinese guys heads falls off and explodes.

[greendragon]

I love this forum, always challenging my paradigm. I had always thought Chinese swords were poorly made and the Japanese invented the layering of soft and hard steel making them sharp yet strong. Upon visiting the sword forum I have learned that Chinese used these techniques also. What puzzles me is where are these Chinese swords? I am an antique dealer and go to major NY auction houses, subscribe to the sale catalogs. Plenty of great historic Katanas, Wakizashi, etc. but I do not see quality Chinese weapons. Can someone tell me of a museum collection i can check out or something? I should maybe keep an eye open for the Green Destiny Sword ?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Gigante
Anyway, a Ninja would kill them both. Ninjas are totally sweet. He would just wail on his guitar until both the Samurai and the Chinese guys heads falls off and explodes.

The Ninja wouldn't kill the Samurai and the Chinese guy until he had killed all the pirates, though.

IronFist

[Daniel Madar]

FWIW, the Japanese do have jian, they just don't practice it anymore. It was a predecessor of the katana, fresh out of China. You still see them used as temple swords, not unlike how the taoists use jian. Probably the most common manifestation is the sword in the hand of Manjushri - in the Japanese incarnation, Manjushri often weilds a jian. The Japanese call it a Ken (same character as jian) and the root word of Kendo.

Hmm. Interesting from the bujinkan guy. All the information I have on japanese straight swords indicates they are called tsurugi. I will have to discuss it with the Buj guys here in Tokyo. Ken is what is known as on-yomi, or derivative chinese prononciation, and is usually not used in a stand alone format. Of course, how did jian become ken? Its my experience that on-yomi tends to resemble southern pronunciations more, hence jian-gim-ken...

As for the rest...

Japanese sword style is specialized environmentally, and has its weaknesses. I really that the US branch of Katori Shinto Ryu had a friendly match with some shield and broadsword guys from the SCA and got schooled. Mainly because their style didnt take shields into account.

That being said, it is ALWAYS the practitioner. There is a great story about Kimura, from judo going through boot camp. Everyone knew he was the great judo/karate guy, so when it came time for bayonet training, they put him up against the best bayonet guy, and everyone was watching.

In his own words, Kimura realized he had no idea how to defeat the guy using a bayonet, so he threw his gun at the other guy, kicked him in the balls, and put him in a lock.

Its not the sword style, its how well a practitioner can get the other guy to play to his game.

Even in boxing you see this, and its the same style. The boxer that can control the pace of the fight is more often than not the winner.

[Leimeng]

~ I already addressed the point on quality of Japanese and Chinese swords several messages on this column back.
~ Suffice it to say that succeeding dynasties disarmed the previous dynasty's military so they could not be counter-revolted.
~ The technique of damascus steel probably came from the middle east or persia and moved to china and japan from there.
~ Having practice Iai, and Kenjutsu previous to practicing Chinese arts, I am reasonably familiar with their efficiancy. I prefer Filipino arts over the others for their blade work.
~ The primary key is how diligently and logically the individual practices.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng Kan Xue

[Liokault]

HEY greendragon

If you want to see old chinese weapons go to Chinesearms.com


The guy who runs the site always has lots of dao and jian in stock not to mention lots of other types of weapons. He is also at the fore front of the campaign to stop the fakeing of old chinese weapons whice is rife.

He has a good history section on his site to.

After that go to Swordforum international.....its great for blade buffs.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Liokault
Cipher.


The japanese swords were not really all that great compared to western and chinese swords.

Both western and chinese swords men had at least as good blades as japanese and ofton better. The real differance is in the worshiping os swords amongst the japanese.

All the technology avaliable to the samurai was around in china at the same time and I belive much of what the japanese used was first developed in china.

Even if the chinese could not make swords to the standard of the japanses (whice I doubt) they offton imported large numbers of swords from japan.


And the thing about cutting though swords with a Katana....thats just plain stupid.
When ever 2 swords clash there will be a chance of one shattering the other. There are many storys of broken samurai swords out there so they can not be all that great.

Also any sword MADE to cut though metal would be very impractical in many other situations.

Give me a break. Do you actually know anything about the way Katanas are made? Have you ever made a blade yourself?

The Japanese had a unique way of making swords, starting from the way they carbonized the steel to make it stronger. Blade making is a very touchy process. The way they layer the sword spending huge amounts of time for the whole process is some thing you don't see practiced in other countries as much as in Japan. Sure others would layer them the same way but would they spend months and months layering them every day. Post a link of a European sword smith that did this to the same extent, if you have the info that is.

As far as cutting through another sword. The point is that the Katana is strong and can hold such an awesome edge compared to other swords. The harder material will cut through the softer, ver simple and basic really. The Katanas are not as likely to brake on impact because of the way they were tempered. I would love to see a European or Chinese sword made the same way, please show one to me, or at least a picture of one with enough info to prove it.

It is really stupid to make it a debate of "I don't like Japanese arts very much so they must suck" I could make a claymore with the same process and technique the Japanese did and it would be just as good.

Think about it, how often does a culture have a secrete method that no one ever adapts to? Not very often. I'm sure different methods seeped out over the years but take a look at history, when was the last time you heard about a broad sword with a hamon? Maybe now days, but I am talking about swords made back in the day, not modern repro's.

As far as the actual skill of the Chinese swordsman Vs. the Samurai I would tend to lead towards the Chinese MA.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Cipher, actually, read the interventions from Thomas Chen on the sword forums it really seems that japanese blades WERE inferior to continental (Mongolian, Chinese, Korean) blades around the 13th century, even though stereotypes always told us that japanese blades "were the best in the world of all time"...

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Cipher, actually, read the interventions from Thomas Chen on the sword forums it really seems that japanese blades WERE inferior to continental (Mongolian, Chinese, Korean) blades around the 13th century, even though stereotypes always told us that japanese blades "were the best in the world of all time"...

I am talking more from personal knoewledge of how smithing works and the methods the Japanese and Europeans used to make swords. There is no doubt that other countries made great weapons, but the way the Japanese smithed their blades made a very unique and powerfull sword. You have to compare apples to apples, not rapier to Katana they are two totaly different swords with different advantages and weaknesses.

What site are you refering to for the sword forums? I would like to check it out. I am allways looking for good blade making info. Not just how to do it but styles and methods as well.

[Braden]

Cipher - www.swordforum.com

I'm not sure what scholarly evidence you want to back up these claims, since you haven't offered any to back you yours. Basically, pick up any legitimate source on historical swordcraft. The only place you'll find the claim that japanese katanas would slice through other swords and were far superior due to secret japanese process is comic books and roleplaying games.

Just for example: http://swordforum.com/forge/roadtodamascus.html would probably be an enlightening read.