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Thread: The Olympics & Wushu

  1. #31
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    "To modify it back into martially applicable would change it entirely."



    Not really. A lot depends on if you have ties back to the originators of Contemporary Wushu or not.

    The original intent was to keep what WAS traditional and simply create a set of standards that allowed for competition in a way that would be an apples to apples view of each athlete.

    Now, what it is becoming is different. Seems the more that those in that generation die off and / or retire, the weaker the link is.

    Mind you, my roots are traditional northern. So, to me, the modifications required for taking changquan, jian, dao, gun, chiang back to traditional are not as big as if I were a southern stylist.

    The 42 Taijiquan WITHOUT the tornado kicks and such are no big stretch that way either.

    But....that is the OLD set of compulsories. The new ones...well, the new changquan is simply a bad routine. It doesn't flow at all. They took some things that are merely training exercises for balance, flexibility, etc... and included them in the routine as if they were martial instead of Gong aspects....

    Now, the old changquan...only minor changes would be required to make it fit within a traditional Chaquan framework.

    BUT...the bigger thing is what is STATED to be judged and what actually IS judged.

    The RULES talk about each move being required to exhibit apporpriate speed, power, focus, martial intent, understanding of the technique in regards to attack and defense....

    In practice, the judges tend to do whatever the folks from the Beijing group do...flash, speed instead of stances, stability, and power..no focus if you can get to the next pose and show fire... that type of thing.

    BUT...what they give points for that way is in direct contradiction to what they SAY they are looking for in the actual judging rules and training.



    "frankly it wouldn't be any easier for a wushu athlete to learn combatr skills than anyone"


    Not really true.

    IF the person can throw a punch with correct form, has stable stances, good and fast footwork, is very flexible, has good basics, a good sense of kinesthetics, etc... They WOULD find combat skills easier to master. They would also have a lot more weapons at their disposal simply due to the things they can physically do.

    BUT....the big thing is that NOT everyone CAN or SHOULD be trained in the combat aspects. There ARE people that are naturals. There are also those that absolutely do not have the predatory approach or that have too much fear of getting hit, injury, or whatever, to ever be able to learn to use it.

    There are also those that can learn to do things in a controlled environment...like a class...that will always freeze and panic in the real situation. This issue of bravery and ability to react appropriately...that to a large extent might not be teachable....can be as much as 50% of the proposition.

  2. #32
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    Sifu Darkfist

    It might interest you to know I train Baji also. I have a good wushu base and learned the form in just over a month. I also train wingchun. I am well versed with short power. Guess what though. If you could do long fist, short power is a cake walk. My teacher has shown me applications for many wushu moves. It is more martial then people give it credit for.

    Also wushu players have the best kungfu basics I have ever seen. There stances are PERFECT. If you could do perfect wushu stance and move in and out of them effectively you could learn ANY other style in short time and make it look and feel better then veterans of that style. True the focus is on forms. I don't see why that is such a problem for people.

  3. #33
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    "Another example, almost all the LF forms, when you punch out your right hand, your left hand will always pull back to your waist. For different combat purpose, your left hand could be at different position, above your head, in front of your chest, below your knee, ..."

    What....I guess i will have to go back and undo all I have learned even in Tan Tui where this is not the case. The pull back to the waist or chest is common for ALL martial art forms (TKD, Karate, Northern LF, ...) but in Chaquan system and other LF systems. there are multitudes of ways to execute the non striking hand. From over head with a block grab, to a cover down and punch over, to a back hook, and on and on...It DOES change from technique to technique and routine to routine.





    "PRC Wushu team designed a set of forms for competition standard and won't allow anyone to change it. "

    There are new routines out all the time. They DON'T allow you to change the COMPULSORIES. They ARE COMPULSORY STANDARD ROUTINES for competition - meaning EVERYONE does the same thing so the judges can compare apples to apples.



    "Is that a good comment or bad comment? If you punch high then your bow-arrow stances should be high. If you punch low then your bow-arrow stance should be high. If you spin then your bow-arrow stance should pivot. They should never look the same."

    The basic form of ALL stances should allways look the same. The use varies and therefore MAY impact the approach...but sorry Gong Bu is Gong Bu. Pu Bu is Pu Bu. you CAN specify high or low...but stances being stances is a foundation basic.

    Similarly, punches being punches are foundation.

    If you are judging and a person has the wrong foot placement in Gong Bu, the first time you see it, it is a standard deduction... The third time you see it, you quit marking off for it and simply deduct a larger standard deduction and it is labeled as an HABITUAL fault.

    There is somewhat of a misunderstanding in HOW judging works going on here...as well as what Contemporary wushu IS now vs. what it was desired to be by those that put it together.

  4. #34
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    "The main purpose of Tantui is to stretch your body into a straight line. When you punch, you will never hold the other arm straight back in combat (Tantui #1)."

    To put it politely...or not...TOTAL BS.

    The MAIN purpose of Tantui (as in Shrlu Tantui) is to teach the basics of stances, movement, quan, zhang, gou.... Tantui is the foundation of ALL routines in the Chaquan family (Cha, Hua, Pao, Hong).

    The moving of the arms straight back...as with the closing of the fist fully overhead when doing a Ma Bu, side punch, overhead block grab is to train you to go all the way through.

    For example, if you open the hand to do a grab and then close it to do a grab, you do NOT close it to resemble the formation that it would have if you actually had something in the hand (like the opponent's arm). You close it to a full fist so you build the habit to close the hand as tightly as possible when you do the grab...so the other guy does not get away.

    Now, you are also getting way confused between Taolu and use. Form is the idealized TRAINING that gets put into practice in Sanda.

    Typical idea from Chaquan for example:

    Train low, use high.

    You do your stances in Taolu low and strong....KNOWING that in actual use, you WILL stand higher...but also knowing that you will have more strength and stability from doing low.

    Overextending a knee....You MAY do that in application but I would not recommend it as a rule of thumb... To do so often gives away your balance...and also does damage to the knee.

    A typical northern approach is not to go in and lock a knee in a static sense but to drive through it with a step locking it as you go through. Southern...not my thing so they MAY do the more static lock...


    The STANDARD is a standard for training and for Taolu. If someone REALLY thinks that they will make their fighting look like doing Taolu, they are either going to have their a$$ kicked by the other guy or their Taolu will look like $hit....

    They compliment each other but Taolu is NOT Sanda or vice versa. If it were, EVERY good Sanshou person would have technically perfect form.

    The reality is that there are very few people that truly excel at both.

    Now, Taolu SHOULD be made your own. I can do the moves exactly as taught and I will NEVER look like my teacher..nor should I. Each person brings their body, coordination, and personality.

    But, the basics are all the same.

  5. #35
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    On the USAWKF page, it sure says it will be in Olympics lol.. guess they gotta update that then ?
    Be water my friend.

  6. #36

    Video: talk show about wushu entering olympics

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOZznc6xMcY&NR=1

    A talk show. guests are Ma Ming Da (tong bei) and Zhu Ren Qi (Nan Quan).

    --

    Japan asked Judo to become an olympic event when Japan hosting the games (1964).

    Korea asked TKD to become an olympic event when South Korea hosting the games (1988).

    China will be hosting the games in 2008, if wushu enters olympics, too?????

    --

    The first time Wushu or Kuo Shu appeared in the games as an exhibit was in the games in Berlin, 1934,

    --

    your comments?

    --

    what are the hurdles?

    --

    Last edited by SPJ; 06-10-2007 at 09:05 AM.

  7. #37
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    The hurdles are a spriting even in Track & Field, where you basically run a 100, 200, 400, or 800 meter race, jumping over small sign-like impediments during the course. It can get really exciting.

  8. #38
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpV4DFDCeF0&NR=1

    In TKD, you get points by kicks.

    In Judo, you win by doing a throw.

    Tao Lu comp is dependent on difficulties in execution of techniques and timing, spirits, characteristis etc.

    --

    Ma Ming Da said, the wushu comp is consisted of Tao Lu, San Shou, short weapons and long weapons traditionally. Wushu went thru re organization from 1953.

    Modern wushu started in 1957. With the advice from Russian gymnastic athletes, Tao Lu competition forms were started to be perfecting. San Shou and weapon drills were dropped.

    In 1980's, San Shou and weapon drills comp came back for a while. Weapon drills then dropped again. San Shou continue till present day. However, Tao Lu comp and San Shou went their separate ways. meaning Tao Lu competitors do not compete in San Shou. and San Shou atheletes do not do Tao Lu comp.

    --

    Last edited by SPJ; 06-10-2007 at 09:26 AM.

  9. #39
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keqyM...elated&search=

    Ma Ming Da said.

    Wushu as a form of competition is there since the very beginning. It is a tradition.

    In modern time from 1920', 1930' to 1940's, Wushu or Kuo Shu had 12 competition items. It was already a complete competition system.

    Tao Lu, San Shou, short and long weapons, Shuai Jiao, archery, --


  10. #40
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2bc...elated&search=

    Ma Ming Da said. during culture revolution, traditional Wushu was persecuted. there was only the dialogue quan.

    after that, Wushu was de-cultured or thinned out. only the surface/form/skin left. fighting aspects were left out. producing only visiual effects such as Jet Li in the movies.--

    --

    Judo and TKD both have Tao Lu/forms. but they presented the competition format into olympics.

    --

  11. #41
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwwJL...elated&search=

    Ma Ming Da said. the Tao Lu format to enter the olympics may not be the good way. It would take the spirits of Wushu away.

    Ma drew a cartoon to express his oppinion.

    In legends of water margin. Wu Song was a very tall and strong guy. And his brother Wu Da Lang was a short person. Wu Song may beat a tiger with barehand. But when it comes to Tao Lu comp, Wu Song had to take a seat and watch Wu Da Lang winning the championship on the stage. To do some tumbling and jumping, a short person is better than a tall one.

    --

  12. #42
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE3wS...elated&search=

    San Shou still has safety issues, similarities to other events etc.

    Quan Shu: long fist, Tai chi, Nan quan. Tai chi is slow and takes 4 to 5 min. Tai Chi was dropped due to length of time. Chang Quan and Nan Quan Tao Lu last 1 min or so.

    Short weapons: boys Dao Shu and girls Jian Shu.

    Long weapons were dropped. because the long spear is made out of Bai Lang Gan. due to weather, not many countries may produce it.

    --

    these are some formats considered.

  13. #43
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    Premieres Saturday


    BroadTones
    Kung Fu Superstar Jet Li: How I’ll Bring Tai Chi to the Olympics
    The iconic actor hopes to light up future Games with an innovative take on traditional martial arts.
    Nov 06, 2017
    Lu Hongyong
    Lu Hongyong is an editor at Sixth Tone.

    This Saturday will see the premiere of a new martial arts movie, “Gong Shou Dao.” With a run time of just 20 minutes, it certainly wasn’t made for its box office potential. The short film, which stars Jack Ma — the founder and executive chairman of Alibaba, China’s largest e-commerce platform — brings together 11 of China’s best-known martial artists and will premiere during the eighth annual Singles’ Day shopping event, when hundreds of millions of the world’s consumers will scour Taobao, Alibaba’s shopping platform, for deals.

    The man behind the film is Jet Li, a celebrated actor whose movies include “Shaolin Temple,” “Fist of Legend,” and “Hero.” Li and Ma are co-founders of Taiji Zen, a lifestyle company that promotes wellness through a combination of tai chi and meditation. Central to the company’s ethos is gongshoudao (GSD), a new form of tai chi that Li and Ma hope will elevate Chinese martial arts to Olympic status.

    Sixth Tone sat down with Li to talk about the power of tai chi, his friendship with Ma, and his future hopes for GSD. The interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.

    Sixth Tone: What is special about GSD compared to other forms of martial arts, and how does it relate to the Olympics?

    Jet Li: I was just 8 years old when I began studying martial arts. I’m 47 now, and over the past four decades or so, I’ve been fortunate enough to make something of a name for myself, acting in Hollywood movies and traveling the world giving talks on this distinctly Chinese form of combat. Countless Chinese dream of the day that martial arts are officially recognized as an Olympic event, but so far, we have been unsuccessful.

    A key reason for our failure to date is the fact that there is no consensus on the standards or categories of the various forms of wushu — martial arts. There are simply too many styles and variations to merit inclusion in the Olympics just yet. Use your fists, and people call it boxing; use your legs, and they call it taekwondo; throw your opponent to the floor, and people call it judo. How, in the end, should we codify something as broad as Chinese martial arts? Jack [Ma] and I hope that GSD will at least define it for the purposes of international sport.

    Sixth Tone: You have mastered several different martial arts styles. Why did you choose to base GSD on tai chi?

    Jet Li: About seven or eight years ago, I read a Harvard University study that looked at 800 published medical papers devoted to the relative merits of tai chi, some of which concluded that it could provide relief for sufferers of heart disease, high blood pressure, arthritis, and depression. This level of discussion is almost nonexistent in China, where we tend to take it for granted that tai chi is good for us. Yet even if it is good, that doesn’t mean it’s a magical cure-all or that it obviates the need for medicine. We must keep putting our faith in science.

    I used to believe there were only four things that mattered in life: fame, money, power, and love. Now, I know that I must gain a clear perspective on what life is really about.
    - Jet Li, actor
    Around the same time, Jack and I met to talk about his dream of shooting a film to help popularize tai chi. Having practiced tai chi for 30 years, he sees it as a symbol of traditional Chinese culture. Two years later, we founded Taiji Zen together. Our shared goal is to get Chinese martial arts — specifically GSD — enshrined as an Olympic event. To this end, we have drawn up detailed rules for GSD, with an eye toward making it more combative and watchable. Domestically, the first GSD tournament will be held in Beijing on Nov. 15.

    Sixth Tone: In the past, China has failed to convince the International Olympic Committee (IOC) to include traditional martial arts at the Games. How do the prospects look now?

    Jet Li: In January, Alibaba put its name to a 12-year partnership with the IOC. Covering the next three Olympic cycles, the contract establishes Jack’s company as one of the IOC’s premier global partners and doubtless gives GSD a leg up in the fight for Olympic status. In fact, Jack personally explained GSD to the IOC’s current president, Thomas Bach, in August.

    I don’t doubt that the Olympic spirit is a good thing. Yet even as the quest to be higher, faster, and stronger has allowed us to redefine humanity’s limits, it has also damaged athletes’ bodies. In our attempts to push ourselves, we’ve lost sight of an important part of the sporting mindset: balance. The world today is changing at an extraordinary pace, so it’s only natural to feel off-balance. But to paraphrase one of Jack’s most quoted comments, it pays to slow down if we want to live happy lives.

    In 1997, around the time I was filming “Once Upon a Time in China and America,” I found myself overcome with doubt for the first time in my life. Ever since I was a little boy, I had always believed that if I simply worked hard, respected the law, and did my best, there was nothing I couldn’t accomplish.

    However, at that point, I realized that in spite of all my wealth, I was still eating the same things I had always eaten and drinking more or less what I had always liked to drink. The only difference was that when I was younger, I’d relieve myself in Beijing’s public restrooms, where other guys stood in lines ****ing all over the urinal trough. Now, though, I lived in a big home with something like eight bathrooms. That was the grand sum of all my achievements: a different bathroom for each day of the week.

    Fundamental to tai chi is a spirit of peaceful coexistence — the belief that in you, there is a piece of me, and in me a piece of you.
    - Jet Li, actor
    I used to believe there were only four things that mattered in life: fame, money, power, and love. Now, I realize that’s not the case, and I know that I must gain a clear perspective on what life is really about. Not long ago, I found myself chatting with Yang Xingnong, Taiji Zen’s CEO and the dean of our academy. Over the course of two hours, we talked about everything from movies and martial arts training to charity and altruism, yet we kept circling back to the same questions: What is life? What is pain? What is love? What, at the end of the day, is the point of living?
    continued next post
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  14. #44
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    Continued from previous post

    Sixth Tone: How does your adaptation of tai chi capture those moral revelations?

    Jet Li: GSD combines physical training with the sort of meditative self-reflection you might expect from Zen Buddhism. Over the past few years, I’ve spent six hours a day meditating, searching for the answers to these questions. I’ve tried going without life’s mundanities — I once went over a week without showering — and attempted a couple things more grandiose, such as when I spent several years staring into caves high in the Nepalese Himalayas. I’m happier than I’ve ever been, because today, my thoughts and purpose are fully aligned.

    When people hear the name Jet Li, they tend to think of the martial artist, the kid who started studying when he was 8 before becoming a national champion and entering the film industry. My first movie, “Shaolin Temple,” came out in 1982 and broke Chinese mainland box office records for a Mandarin-language film. Though I went on to enjoy a successful career in Hong Kong and Hollywood, that Jet Li has now stepped out of the public eye.

    These days, I spend my time thinking about how I can help people live better, including through charitable work. Ten years ago, I launched the One Foundation, a charity focused on helping communities recover from disasters, protecting and educating children, peer support, and innovation.

    Sixth Tone: Your 1982 film debut, “Shaolin Temple,” made Chinese viewers fall back in love with martial arts. Are you expecting to leave a similar impression with GSD?

    Jet Li: I like to say that while “Shaolin Temple” revived interest in martial arts, it failed to capture their essence. The action-packed movie inspired a generation of kids who dreamed of one day being martial artists, but ended up as security guards. My current hope is that Taiji Zen will cultivate a generation of Zen practitioners, thinkers, and warriors — a generation in which everyone has their own thoughts and outlook on life, and everyone is receptive to feedback and willing to support one another. No more children will grow up dreaming of becoming mere fighters; they will also know the value of Zen as a guiding path to self-realization.

    China’s national character is scarred by memories of fighting foreign aggression. But the tide has turned. Today, there’s no need to go around talking about how strong the Chinese people are. Fundamental to tai chi is a spirit of peaceful coexistence — the belief that in you, there is a piece of me, and in me a piece of you. All of us share this spirit, regardless of ethnicity. At present, there are about 150 million tai chi practitioners around the world, and the global influence of Chinese martial arts is something I am immensely proud of.

    I hope tai chi, in the form of GSD, has a good chance of becoming an Olympic sport. Two of the characters in its Chinese name, gong and shou, stand for “kung fu” and “defense,” respectively. China has been an agricultural civilization for centuries, and although the country is now industrializing rapidly, different forms of kung fu, including tai chi, play a vital — I would even say foundational — role in Chinese culture as a means of protecting our homes, land, and territorial integrity. In the future, I hope to see GSD become a symbol similarly deserving of our pride in China’s martial heritage.

    Translator: Kilian O’Donnell; editors: Lu Hongyong and Matthew Walsh.

    (Header image: A still frame of Jet Li’s character in the 2006 film ‘Fearless.’ VCG)

    The Art of Attack and Defence (Gong Shou Dao) = The Olympics & Wushu + TaijiZen & ONE Foundation.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

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