lineage charts

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi NorthernShaolin,

[buddhapalm]

Hi r.
This is a very good question, and thanks to the help mainly of NorthernShaolin I have learnt something about the lineage. At least for Sun Yu Fung, but even this information is limited and I would love to find out more about the past. Before Monk YuanTong.

Regarding Sun Yu Fungs Lohan Men, he learnt it from Shaolin Monk Yuan Tong, alongside SYF's classmate Ma Liang. Sun Yu Fung then taught it to many students in the Canton Ching Wu Association. One of these students was Ma Kin Fung who taught Wong Jack Man and also my Sigung Dea Bak Do at different times.

This is just a crude breakdown of what I know about the Lohan lineage of Sun Yu Fung. NorthernShaolin will be able to show much more detail in this lineage, as I received most of my information from him.

Regarding my style, it seems to be a combination of Northern and Southern styles, and so far I have not been able to determine (except for my Shaolin Pole and Bak Kwa/Men Dao) how much may be original Lohan sets. Some may be Lohan or they may be Mizong or Erlang Quan. But this is changing the topic.

Lets look forward to what NorthernShaolin says..........

Cheers all

[GeneChing]

We published a lineage chart for KYC in our Oct 2000 issue - http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf-200010.html - It's from Chan Kwok Wai. It's the most complete lineage I've seen. Sorry I don't know how to post it on the web since it's pretty non-linear (plus I'm trying to sell mags here .) It has the Chinese characters too.

[NorthernShaolin]

Okay, lets start with the easy one first. Chao Lin Ho's teacher was his uncle, Chao Chih Ho. As for the students of Chao Lin Ho, there were indirectly thousands. Since he was the Head Insructor of all the Ching Wu (Jing Mo) schools, he rarely taught directly to the students but in the beginning, he taught the students directly. He mainly taught out of the main Ching Wu School in Shanghai. His main style was Mi Tsung and Northern Shaolin.

As for Sun Yu Fung, he had two teachers. His saber skills came from Chang Chan Kuei who learnt from the Green Forest Bandit, Ma Hsiang, and his fist arts, NSL Yin Lo Han (where Yin translates as the third generation), from Monk Yuan Tung T’san. SYF classmate was Ma Lang who taught Yang Fei and Wang Tzu Pang.

SYF was the head instructor at the Ching Wu school in Canton. Some of his students were Chen Te Chien, Hwang Hsia Hsia, Yi Cho Jen, Liu Ching Kuei, Husang Hon Sheng, Li Shao Ping, Li Han Chu, Li Chung Chu, Shen Chao, Jung Hwang Sheng, Ts’ai Tso Shih, Lin His K’un, Sun Wen Yang, Sun Shao Chu, Sun Wen Jung, Shen Chao Wen, Lin Shao K’un, Lin Shao Lui, and Ma Ching Fung.

As for Kuo Yu Chang, there are two lingage for NSL which it really depends on which generation one want to believe.

The first one is the one that was transmitted to me from the older generation or in other words my sifu's sisuks or uncles:

Monk Chih Yuan who taught Feng Shao Ch’en, to Hsu Wen San to Yim Po to Yim Chi Wen.

The second lineage is from the web site stated by Gene. Now Chan Kwok Wai is from a more recent generation and is my sifu lower classmate:

Monk Chao Yuan Ho Shang who taught Kan Feng Chih to Wan Pang Ts’ai to Yim Te Kung to Yim Chi Wen.

From Yim Chi Wen, he taught Wan Kuo Wu, Liu Tan Fan, Pa Ching and KYC.

Some of KYC students were Yim Shan Wu, Lung Tzu Hsiang, Chen Hsien Mon, Lau Ching Tung, Cho Shen Chih, Chen Nien Pai, Feng Te An, Lai Kai Ching, Pan Chu, Ou Hu Shou, and Chiang Au.

Just as important to NSL, Lui Ho was also transmitted from Liu Te Kwan and Liu Tien Hsian to Chou Chew Chou to Wan Li Sheng to KYC/YSW.

[r.(shaolin)]

Great! ..................

[buddhapalm]

Dear NorthernShaolin,
Superb response .............. as expected

While we are on the subject, may I ask a question or so ?

1. Wang Tzu Pang was a student of Ma Lang. Is he the same master also spelled as Wang ZiPing (something like that) who also taught Ba Gua and had photos of him holding a monk spade with a long beard ?

2. Who may I ask was Yang Fei ? Do you know of any of his students or line still around ?

Hi r., I would love to hear your thoughts on Monday. This is great !

Thanks all.

Buddhapalm

[NorthernShaolin]

r.

Sorry but I do not know of Liu Baichuan. Please tell me about him.

Buddhapalm,

I think this person, Wang Tzu Pang, is a different person. I have to go back and check the original Chinese characters. As for Yang Fei, I do not have any other info on him either.

[r.(shaolin)]

I find the reference 'Green Forest Bandit' to Ma

[NorthernShaolin]

r.,

Now that I saw the picture of Liu Bai Chuan, it does trigger my memory.

I know of him by Liu Po Chuan and he was one of Wan Li Sheng's teachers. In the book, Shao lin Lo Han Ch'iao Ta or Shaolin Lo Han Skillfull Strikes, written by Wan Li Sheng, (publisher: Unicorn Print, HK, 1985, G.P.O Box 2448, Sole Agent: Yilt Mei Book Co., No. &, Tin Lok Lane, G/F, HK), it has a short bio on Liu Bai Chuan.
The book also contains several pictures of him. One of him sitting, another of him posing in a hand set and another performing double sabers. The pictures are dated 1930.

Lui Bai Chuan main style was Shaolin Lo Han and he learned from a monk name Yang Ch'eng Yun. Lui Bai Chuan was born in 1870 and pass away in 1964. There is some other info but it would take me much longer to translate.

[r.(shaolin)]

NorthernShaolin,
ha!: - ))) Thank you for taking time to do this research!

[NorthernShaolin]

Buddhapalm,

I checked and you are right! It is the same Wang Tzu Pang. Ma Lang was one of his teachers but his main teacher was Yang Hong Xia. Now when Ma lang revised his original his book, The China New Wu Shu, 1900, which complied into four part: Shuai Jiao (Wresting), fist arts, kicking arts and fighting arts of staff and single sword fighting, he asked Yang Hong Xiu to help him re-write the sections in the revision (in 1911) and then hand picked Yang in 1914 to be an instructor for the Army.

r.,

You know I just figured it out: monk Yang Cheng Yu is the same monk name Yang Ch'eng Yun.

Any way if you can e-mail me at jingmo@jingmo.org, I can either fax you to a number of the section (including the photos)regarding Liu Baichuan's short bio or I can send you back an e-mail with the photo attachments. (I'll have to scan it first then sent it.

[buddhapalm]

Hi NorthernShaolin,
Thats great, its Wang ZiPing ... lucky guess it was :-)

How much do you think Wang ZiPing learnt from Ma Lang, which forms ?

Sorry, who was Yang Hong Xia ? Was he Ma Langs student ? Was he practicing Lohan style also ?

I would love to see the book "Shao lin Lo Han Ch'iao Ta" sometime.

r.,
Thats great information on the bandit/secret society connection.

I would love to learn more about the Cui Lin Society and what you discussed about White Lotus.

By the way has anyone heard of a form called "Wild Lilly Fist", or in Cantonese Kong Lahn Kuen ? Or does this flower possibly have any connotations to something like White Lotus.

On that note, perhaps the profuse amount of "Flower Fists" and "Flower Spears" may have some relationship to secret societies. The MeiHuaZhang Plum Blossom system is also a hybrid of Buddhist, Daoist and Manichaean philosophies. Their style, similar to how r. describes Cui Lin, features philosophy, martial arts, secret society and Chi Gung. In MeihuaZhang only one successor was supposed to carry on as the leader, transmitted from generation to generation. This sounds like a remnant of a secret society to me. What do you think.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[NorthernShaolin]

buddhapalm,

Ma Lang was very famous during his time because he was approching CMA in a non traditional method which was adpoted by the military. Ma Lang had a ranking of a Commander and was very influential while Yang Hong Xia was considered Ma Lang's equal, he just did not have the political connections. Yang Hong Xia expertise was Tan T'ui and Ch'a style and that is what he was able to pass onto Wang Tzu Pang. Based on what I was able to translate, it appears that Ma Lang was not teaching his Shaolin Lo Han but more fighting techniques while his counterpart, Sun Yu Fung, taught at the Jing Mo in a more traditional mode.

Ma Lang was so famous that Jing Mo originally selected him to be one of the head instructors at Jing Mo. However because of his military school he declined but recommended his classmate, Sun Yu Fung. That is how SYF ended up at Jing Mo.

[buddhapalm]

Dear Northern Shaolin,
Thanks for the information. I often see a photo of Wang Zi ping standing in a posture holding a moon tooth shovel. Do you think that this routine/weapon could be from the Cha fist system ? If not it may have been a Lohan system routine from Ma Lang. Any thoughts would be great.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[NorthernShaolin]

buddhapalm,

In all the Ch'a style curriculum in the old texts, I have not seen the monk spade as called their very own. Ch'a style borrowed many weapon sets from different styles, with most of them from Shaolin. As the generations of Ch'a masters pass their knowledge to the next, they often combined differnt weapon sets to create a combination single set.

So what's with the picture of Wang Tzu Pang and the monk spade/shovel? No doubt that he practiced with the weapon but I got a feeling that he learnt the weapon from Yang Hong Xia and not from Ma Lang because Ma Lang was into modernizing CMA for practical use such as soldiers in the military. Monk spade/shovels would not be practical in a 'modern army'.

If anything, spear techniques would be useful for bayonet and rifle techniques of the foot soldier. However, I believe KMT encouraged the use of Hsing -I spear techniques if memory serves me correctly because Hsing-I techniques are more direct in the method of killing quickly.