"kick butt" attitude

[Dr. Feelgood]

Reading from the Tiaji or Taijiquan thread something Tai Chi Bob said rang a bell. "Conventional Martial Arts", are those that focus on strength, speed and a "kick butt" attitude. What hit home to me is that I have spent most of my life with a “kick butt” attitude. Sometimes literally, others figuratively. This approach has served my well. Kept me competitive but always on edge. As I have gotten older, I find it more physically and mentally draining to plow through a person or a task. That is what drew me to Taijiquan. I like the quite confidence and peace. I am very new to my training, however, I expect to learn to control situations, and people when necessary, without having to overtly dominate. It reminds me of a definition of diplomacy… something to the effect of selling someone something that they already own and make them think they are getting a deal.

My question is this…. When pushing myself, whether physically working out or studying long hours it has been this “kick butt” attitude that has pushed me. “I will dominate”. I have always associated this “kick butt” drive to that of a warrior. How do we train in internal martial arts but maintain that warrior drive. That warrior never quite attitude… One more rep… One more hour… without calling on that I will “kick butt” attitude? As I said, the I will “kick butt” attitude has served my well, but constantly on full speed will wear you out. Internal Warrior?

Peace

[Spirit Writer]

Personally, I think this "conflict" is a problem with all martial arts, but especially Tai Chi.

There is nothing wrong with a "kick butt" attitude when studying a MARTIAL ART. These were never intended to make us more efficient paper pushers at work, allow a calm state of mind to log onto the Web with an inner stillness -- these are side effects.

My two cents are this: Don't get caught into the "soft" trap of taichi. In fact, when in use, Taichi can be as hard as Hung Gar at times. Balance.

If a kick butt attitude drives you, positively motivates you, then why let it go? Don't do it merely to fit into a judgement you've made about the art.

Aproach the art like you would any other. With an open, honest, practical mind. Then go from there.

The majority of Taiji I see is too soft, so a kick butt attitude may give you a great advanatage. Though the famous "invest in loss" is very important in Taiji beginning stages, so you learn not to resist the force. When you know how not to resist, you can resist with out resisting.

Either way have fun and be natural. Avoid all these new age taiji books and videos and avoid this web site. Find a good teacher and listen to him/her. That will be all you need.

[taijiquan_student]

This is an interesting topic. You need that "kick butt" attitude, or whatever you want to call it, to truly succeed. The thing is you can't let it make you hard or stiff. Having strong and focussed mind-intent shouldn't be synonomis with hardness. One thing to keep in mind, by the way, is that when I say "hard", I mean muscular strength and tension. Taiji is soft and hard, the hardness being the steel on the inside from your qi and the ligaments and tendons that comes out for an instant when you fajin, but when someone says taiji is soft AND hard, that doesn't really mean that one moment you're being very soft and listening to the duifang (the other person) and the next moment you're stiffening up and striking from your shoulder with clenched biceps.

But really, you need that killer attitude. You need to know that you're not just striking the person's face, you're putting your intent all the way to the wall behind them, right through, and that your palm is going through their face. To really get something special you need to be incredibly determined and have strong intent--you can't try to do it, or simply do your form once in the morning once in the evening, that sort of thing, you need to "eat bitter" as they say. Of course you don't want to be an a**hole to anyone, but you have to know that you can put your palm or foot right through someone, put anyone down with one blow.

To get a bit sidetracked, this is something I see a lot of in articles and books by taiji people--a lack of confidence. You don't need to be an egomaniac, or be going around challenging everyone, but it helps amazingly to have confidence in what you're doing. There's a lot of false humility or just plain stupid humility in taiji (maybe in other MA's too) where you hear people who have practiced for ten years talk about how the can't do anything and they're such a beginner. While it's true there's always somewhere else to go, and you're always something of a beginner in some sense (compare yourself to your teacher, then compare them to their teacher, for instance), you really should be quite good after ten years. That's a long time--I don't have any idea of the exact words, but William Chen said something like "if after three years of training you can't defend yourself with a certain amount of skill, you're doing something wrong". He didn't mean you should be a "master", but that you should have a solid, basic level of skill that you can use to a certain extent and that you can build off of. Sorry people, I'm ranting.

Anyway, while I don't think you shouldn't get caught up in softness, you definitly shouldn't throw away that intent that pushes you do train harder, just don't let it make you stiff.
Maybe Spirit Writer could elaborate on taiji he's seen being too soft? In my mind, the softer and more yielding, the better. Maybe you mean collapsed and dead?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Initially, i refered to "kick-butt"attitude in another post, but to explain myself i'll try here.. It has been my experience that the "full-on" approach to anything limits the practicioner to to that mind-set..

"your palm is going right through their face".. suppose the situation doesn't require that level of "intent".. the "kick-butt" attitude approaches each situation with the same intensity, the same goal of dominance, the same air of superiority.. it is force meeting force.. My own experience is that Tai Chi is neutral, seeking to control a situation only to return the extreme to the neutral.. i have no need to dominate, only to preserve.. That being said, indeed, there are situations where extremes are applicable, but.. the wisdom of discernment is evidence of a deeper understanding of basic Taoist principles.

My teacher says: "better to walk away than fight.. better to hurt than maim.. better to maim than kill.. better to kill than be killed".. better to know when these are applicable than to assume a brutish and dominating nature.. Power, not tempered with compassion, is tyranny.. Two players can train and fight with exactly the same intensity.. one with enough self-control to neutralize the situation, the other using control of the situation to punish or demonstrate prowess.. the latter, i would label as a "kick-butt" attitude.. There is no honor in using more force than is necessary to control a situation.. beyond controlling a situation to the point of neutrality, we only feed our egos.. One can acheive supreior martial skills without the ego-enhancing "kick-butt" attitude.. "self-confidence" is most evident as we see someone who CAN destroy an opponent simply control them.. the confidence is evident in not needing to demonstrate they can destroy, they already know it..

Tai Chi is both soft and hard (yin AND yang).. hurting AND healing.. to teach someone to hurt and not teach them to heal is unbalanced.. Tai Chi is about quality of life and health.. that is its beauty, it's more than just another "kick-butt" martial art.. yet, in that aspect of its wholeness it is superior...

Just another perspective from the Far-side.. be well..

[Dr. Feelgood]

As I read the replies I am reminded of a car commercial a few years ago. It was for the Datsun 280z sports car. It went something like " you can go 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, you can do the 1/4 mile in 11.2 seconds...but you don't, but you know you can and the feeling is awesome.”

That its what I am striving for when it comes to martial arts. It is the confidence to handle situations appropriately. But to always know that I can escalate as high as I need to go, one higher than the threat. May be that is the paradox of all martial arts. Train to kill, but know how to modulate your response.

Also for me, at my beginning level, the killer instinct drive is not appropriate. Shifu’s focus is on building a foundation, sung and internal awareness of energies, not a lot of obvious martial intent. It is this that probable presents as a contradiction to my “kick butt” drive and will be resolved as the foundation is built and more obvious martial skills are added.

Do you guys remember your beginning into taijiquan? I am convinced of the many benefits, but it is a giant leap of faith for me compared to the way I have done everything in the past. Frankly, because of my age, 35, I was “forced” into it away from Shaolin. I just did not feel that my joints could take the Shaolin pounding for the next 20 years. But after a year I have clearly been “forced” into the right choice. Funny how life will do that.

Thanks to all, I value your experience.

[miscjinx]

"How do we train in internal martial arts but maintain that warrior drive. That warrior never quite attitude… One more rep… One more hour… without calling on that I will “kick butt” attitude? As I said, the I will “kick butt” attitude has served my well, but constantly on full speed will wear you out. Internal Warrior?"

Have you ever considered how much energy was wasted? Efficient use of energy and the ability to escalate is a big part of tai chi, in my mind. Tai chi is also very reactionary in that your opponent determines your move...the "I will dominate" attitude is too aggressive. You join with your opponent while staying in control (of now both of you). Often I am surprise and how little tai chi moves to get the job done. Tai chi is more of the middle road...not too aggressive and not too passive...so that way you have the full range of motion available.

"Also for me, at my beginning level, the killer instinct drive is not appropriate. Shifu’s focus is on building a foundation, sung and internal awareness of energies, not a lot of obvious martial intent. It is this that probable presents as a contradiction to my “kick butt” drive and will be resolved as the foundation is built and more obvious martial skills are added."

You have to learn how to move first...sung, full body connections, etc, etc. That is why many don't like the internal arts...they are impatient and want to "kick butt" right away. Once you learn how to move, learn to reformat intention and focus, and generate internal power then you can start using it in martial applications. You can start using it in everyday life far more readily however.

What may keep you going is finding how much more power you can generate as you start getting it...and how much less effort it takes. I seems the more correct I do things, the less it feels like I am doing anything. If it feels like you are working hard, you are probably not doing it right. It is counter-intuitive that way. If you like to feel like your are working hard and insist of feeling like you are working hard, you may not have the temperment and mental attitude to do internal martial arts.

[Dr. Feelgood]

“If you like to feel like your are working hard and insist of feeling like you are working hard, you may not have the temperment and mental attitude to do internal martial arts.”


Miscjinx – I think you are insightful with the above. As a 35 year old med student, with a wife and two young children, I am trying to change my attitude. Life can be hard by itself, if I can flow with it, and not against it, I think I will last a lot longer.

Thanks for your thoughts

[taijiquan_student]

I would think that Yang Banhou and Yang Jianhou thought of themselves as working hard when their father trained them so intensely that banhou tried to run away and jianhou tried to kill himself.
I agree that it really does feel effortless when you get it right (not very often for me), but in a general sense, I still don't think that working hard has to mean using brute strength or stiffening up. Maybe instead of saying "working hard" we can say "training with a focussed and determined mind-intent". I don't know. You d*mn taiji people are so.......aaaarrrrggghhhh.

taichi bob:

"the confidence is evident in not needing to demonstrate they can destroy, they already know it.."

taiji_student:

"You don't need to be an egomaniac, or be going around challenging everyone, but it helps amazingly to have confidence in what you're doing."

I think we have a similar viewpoint on confidence.

I realize the balance of yin/yang in taijiquan. My point about the whole palm through the face thing was pertaining to the intent one practices with. Of course you don't need to always intend to kill someone with one blow, and you shouldn't go around demonstrating your ability to do so if you have it. Where did I say this in my post, or did you not mean to say that I thought this? Internet discussions can be so darn confusing sometimes.

[greendragon]

a "fighting spirit" does not have to equate to bad intent for your opponent. harboring negative feelings will weaken you. training and becoming more proficient will take you to a more compassionate level.