Martial Arts and the Law (question)

**cagey_vet** · 07-30-2002, 11:50 AM

say theres a confrontation in which i am forced to defend myself against an attack of some sort, involving myself (a sober, trained martial artist, however unbeknownst to the police at the time of the incident) and a drunk marine/fratboy/sailor.
i prevail, the police arrive and start to question me.

elsewhere i have seen a post where 'advice' was given to say nothing without an attorney present, but to offer only ID.

my question is: if the facts of the situation (without my street testimony) prove that i was assaulted and was forced to defend myself, and i say nothing, not even a single word... what are my chances of being hauled downtown for simply defending myself?
i live in southern california, if that matters.

it would be nice to have some guys with experience speak up on
the matter, as in the future i have a base reference to go by during the 'after action' review. that way when Johnny Law shows up to regulate i dont open my big mouth and say something wholly incriminating (which is open to interpretation anyways, especially under duress).

fellow martial artists, your thoughts?

**gazza99** · 07-30-2002, 12:32 PM

Ive had a few students who are police officers. The best advice Ive gotten is to not be there anymore. One of my guys told me no matter who started/finished the fight they haul both people in and let the judge sort it out. He said just get out of there and quickly.
Another scenario is that the cops want to determine who to haul in, they will ask all the eyewitnesses they can find, and you. If you were loud enough in voicing the fact you didnt want to fight it will be obvious you were only acting in defense. Some people say to tell them nothing, but I think this may only ensure they take you in if they have any doubt. If you do say something dont offer them information about your martial arts backgroud, tell them you were threatened and just reacted to keep from getting hurt, if you broke the guys jaw, collar bone, nose, knee, and wrist, it was only to save yourself.
Remeber, you are only allowed to use "reasonable force", however it is interpreted.

Gary

**BrentCarey** · 07-30-2002, 12:42 PM

It is a complicated subject. One of the main things you need to look at is the extent of injuries on both sides. If the attacker is injured and you are not, you need to be very careful how you proceed.

There is no blanket advice that applies to every situation. Therefore, the best general advice is to be cooperative, but not give details of the situation without an attorney.

As a rule, it is not self-incriminating to give details about the attacker's actions, provided you don't reveal your own actions in the process, and you don't give the impression that your statement of the attacker's actions is all-inclusive. There may be legally important details about the attacker's actions that you forget to mention. If you give the impression that your statement covers all of his actions, but have omitted these details, it could come back to bite you.

Definitely avoid discussing your background or anything outside of the immediate situation. Do not discuss your relationship with the attacker, what started the confrontation, anyone else that was not physically involved, martial arts training, etc. These confuse the facts and open yourself up.

In reality, the law enforcement officer just wants to know if this is simple assault, aggravated assault, some sort of homicide, or none of the above. Look up the definitions of each in your state. If a situation does not classify as any of the above, it is probably best to help the officer see that so everyone can go on their way.

If someone is dead, expect to take a ride with the officer. Be cooperative but give no details without an attorney - a good one.

If the incident classifies as aggravated assault, you will probably be taking a ride. Don't try to talk your way out of it, just cooperate and wait for your attorney. If a weapon was present at all, or there were serious injuries, don't talk without an attorney. If you are injured and the other person is not, it is probably OK to give enough details to make sure the attacker is detained, then talk to your attorney.

Simple assault is the only grey area. Sometimes the difference between being charged with simple assault, and being slapped on the hand, is how the parties involved cooperate with law enforcement. Also, the confrontation needs to appear over. If an officer answers a simple assault call, lets everyone go, then later one of the involved parties stabs, shoots, etc. the other, that's a problem. The officer needs to feel like there is no problem anymore.

The best advice I can give is just stay out of confrontations of this sort. Many people feel like they have the right to defend themselves against verbal attacks, which escalate into physical attacks. Nearly every attack that does not involve another crime (such as robbery, rape, etc) involves mutual antagonism. This is so childish.

"Well, he started it, he called me names. Was I supposed to just let him call me names? And he didn't have to push me, so I pushed him back", etc, etc, etc.... Many people are their own worst enemies. They confuse their inability to resist a challenge, with a compulsion to defend themselves. There is a huge difference.

Best regards,

Brent Carey

**Skarbromantis** · 07-30-2002, 12:45 PM

Dont say any thing remember "anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you in a court of law, so be smart say nothing, who cares if they take you down to the station, its better than opening your mouth and incriminating your self.

I got picked up a couple years back with a buddy , i didnt say jack, they put in the car to chill, my buddy talks with the goof cop,
tells him we were just on our way to meet the rest of the boys at the spot...in court they ask me if i belong to a gang, i start to laugh on the stand, the b)tch DA turn's and ask's me whats so funny, i ask her where did she get that idea from , she tells me "one of your friend said you were going to meet up with the rest of the boys i assume thats a crew or a gang" see what i mean!!, Innocent statement turned arround to stick it to you!

Please i beg DONT GIVE A STATEMENT !!!!!!!

Skard1 can be contacted throught KFO for any legal question at a rate of $80.00 per post, all payments's can be made to Skard1 c/o Gene Ching

Skard1

**BrentCarey** · 07-30-2002, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by gazza99
The best advice Ive gotten is to not be there anymore. One of my guys told me no matter who started/finished the fight they haul both people in and let the judge sort it out.

In cases of simple assault this may be fine. If the other party is injured, and/or there were weapons present, that's a real problem. You may not even know that they are injured right away. I have seen a guy walk away from a fight and die the next day.

As you pointed out, they WILL question witnesses. There may even be witnesses that you didn't see. If you flee the scene, you may avoid having to take an inconvenient car ride, but may end up in prison as a result.

I have to disagree that this is a good idea under any circumstances. It is almost always better to just cooperate. In fact, it doesn't hurt if you or a friend are the one to call the police - especially if there were injuries.

Just remember, you could be innocent and acting only in self-defense, but if the other person is injured and you flee, you suddenly make huge problems for yourself.

I completely agree with the advice to not discuss martial arts background, but instead limiting your comments to "he attacked, so I defended".

Best regards,

Brent Carey

**Former castleva** · 07-30-2002, 01:07 PM

Luckily I have no "reality" experiences of serious assaults.
Of course you can kill them as self-defense or strike a right acupoint so they will go mute.

(I´m so funny)
I´ll add a small piece of self-protection law from my country (please note this may not be completely up to date,but gives a direction) slight quote-if opponent is bigger than you,more force allowed-if has a weapon,more force allowed-if "friends" present,more force allowed.
Those are not my own ideas,just a primary quote.
I think the whole law in general is completely bizarre.
When it happens,you don´t have much time to think.
It´s naturally easier to be after-wise and say how things should have gone like.This is what the criminals may come up with.
But like one experienced guy said,if you sincerely follow the rules and LAWs of the society,you are likely to come up with little trouble.

**gazza99** · 07-30-2002, 01:22 PM

Your right Brent,
I would prefer to stick around in most cases, but if nobody was around,it was a simple assualt case, and the attacker did not know me ,that is the circumstance when I would just flee the scene. I think that is the context the advice was given in as well.

Gary

**JusticeZero** · 07-30-2002, 01:57 PM

Thought 1: On fleeing the scene, if you are later found simply note that it seemed like a bad idea to hang around, since you didn't know if he had friends with guns who were coming to back him up.

Thought 2: Always talk at length about how frightened you were, and always mention that you thought you saw the other guy reaching into a pocket and you were afraid, therefore, that he might have a knife or a gun.

**old jong** · 07-30-2002, 01:59 PM

Let's say that you defended yourself and had the guy bruised and beaten.He leaves the place,bar,whatever and you stay there enjoying your victory.What makes you believe that he will not be back with some friends or a shotgun?...The celebrations could be very short!
I think it is a lot better to leave the place as well.You could call the police from elsewhere if you want but it is very advisable to not stay there in the first place.

**Skarbromantis** · 07-30-2002, 04:54 PM

Never ...and I repeat NEVER leave the scene, if you get caught, and you have to go to court, they can use that against you, even if you kicked out his teeth, broke his nose, and cracked his knee, don’t leave, any good lawyer will tell you that, it falls under your Character.

And if your in the wrong, its better to be wrong standing, then it is to be wrong running, it also hurts you chance of getting bail if you are charged, and if convicted, its harder to get parole, you have to see the big picture.

If anyone knows, unfortuely I do. (Not proud of my past)

Skard1 accepts all methods of payment for legal council, cash, check, legal aid accepted, all payment’s can be made to Skard1 c/o Gene Ching

Skard1

**Skarbromantis** · 07-30-2002, 05:00 PM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's say that you defended yourself and had the guy bruised and beaten.He leaves the place,bar,whatever and you stay there enjoying your victory.What makes you believe that he will not be back with some friends or a shotgun?...The celebrations could be very short!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats true, my previous post was if, you kicked the crap out of buddy and he was just lying there.

if he leaves you better get out of their quick or be strapped ..straight up!!!

KFO council, President of the Kung Fu Lawyers of KFO.

Skard1

**TaoBoy** · 07-30-2002, 05:24 PM

The primary concern should be saving your own butt. If you are in a confrontation and it ends - say you end up in a better state than your attacker - get outta there. There's no use being there for any retribution. If the police catch up with you later - you have a valid reason for leaving.

And as BrentCarey said, co-operate. Don't incriminate yourself but still be co-operative. And as the others stated - don't mention your MA background - it is irrelevant and may leave you open.

Disclaimer: I am speaking from a common sense perspective and we all know common sense has very little influence on the law. Use ideas at own risk.

Peace

**BrentCarey** · 07-30-2002, 05:36 PM

Whether you stay or go (and there are valid reasons for either depending on the context), it is always a good idea to be the one to call the police. Even if you are not the first one to call. This sometimes helps substantiate your self-defense claim.

-Brent

**toddbringewatt** · 07-31-2002, 04:59 AM

Consult the law for yourself. Read the code and understand it. It's available in print. Anything short of this puts you at risk if you plan to dance anywhere near the activity referrenced in it.

**ged** · 07-31-2002, 05:11 AM

so in summary:

generally, get the hell out of there. only stay if he's seriously injured with no friends around, or he knows you?

and if you run, dont call the cops. if you stay, do.
?

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