Bak Hok Pai

[HopGar]

sometimes we're told to snap them, but then again is not such a great idea b/c you could mess your wrist up. Otherwise, we just hit like a regular one, as much as I can tell anyway.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

Once you build up your wrists with bridge training it won't mess them up.what that does is facilitate a dim mak strike.If you do it while doing a gin choi you can "spot" someone with your knuckles.

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

thats true. I agree completely. By the way, whats your take on doin gong ji (dan ji?) with a lower stance than usual? Good exercize or not?
And, do ya know anything about Dragon-Tiger Staff Spear, and Da Mo Sword?

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

It's great excersise.It dosen't really give me a good burn anymore,but is still a great excersise.Those weapon sets, either Ku made them up or got them from somewhere other than hopgar.If I were you I would definately learn them because I'm sure there great sets (or he wouldn't have them)they're just not origional hopgar sets.

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

I'm going to - depends really on if my sifu stays or not, becuase its looking a bit like he's moving to SC, but hopefully that wont happen. But anyway, I agree completely.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[HopGar]

I just realized that they aren't Hop Gar. Whatever.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

That's ok though.Alot of White crane schools have some hungar,tai chi,yichuan,and drunken in them.That's the beauty of Tibetan martial arts they're very open ended.They are based on principles not techniques.It's those same principles that make the techniques effective.So in essence you can apply the training principles(breathwork,bridgework,centering,timing, focus)to any remotely similar art and make it fit what you're doing.Hopgar is mainly an external system of fighting but Ku Chi Wai has taken a Buddist chi gung and added it to his curriculum which turns it into an all around system.That's one example of a good addition to a system.In my school we have White crane,hopgar,yichuan,a little hsing i,yang style tai chi,eight drunken immortals,mi chuan,and deer boxing.White crane is the main system taught and the bridge to all these other things.I don't know how you guys train but I would suggest that you work on doing 10,000 of eack one of your techniques and drills and it will change who you are and you will also internalize your art,and it will start to reveal hidden things to you and you will start to understand how you can incorperate it into other things."All roads lead to the same mountain."Some are longer than others.Some are shorter than others but when you reach the mountain you die.With Tibetan arts you get to live on the mountain for a while before you die.Tibetan arts are from the white dragon family.They are a spiritual art from the rooftop of the world,the razors edge.They will empower you and at the same time(if you do 10,000's)humble you so you can be a warrior and at the same time live in a society where that empowerment may make some people a bit nervous.

Jon Moore

[HopGar]

When I train (when being the keyword), I do about 120 of everything and then more if I'm feelin really wild. I agree 100%.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

Try 400,including drills.That's what I'm talking about,but don't harm yourself.

Jon Moore

[Gum Gong]

You have to train past the point of muscle pain to experience what I'm talking about.

Jon Moore

[friday]

Hi everyone,

i m sure the tibetan ma like alot of ma 'develop' through sometimes the incorporation of tecchniques, chi gong, etc from other styles.

But I agree with my sifus. Pak Hok Pai is a complete system. that is not to say that nothing can be learnt from other styles of ma. From my knowledge of the Pak Hok Pai system and discussions with my sifus is that Pak Hok Pai already has its own internal sets. Does your sifus teach u the internal sets from lion's roar? or has taught u some of the internal sets form Shaolin?

Also with my understanding of the Pak Hok Pai weapons sets there are at least 18.

My only issue with all this is that it would perhaps be a good idea for students to know which sets are derived from which styles. Whether they are tibetan ma or Shaolin. if students are led to believe that certain sets are lion's roar but are in fact shaolin if u ever perform the set in a competition it would be best if u did not claim that it is a lion's roar set. Just as Pak Hok Pai sets are distinctively Pak Hok and not sets directly taken from other styles i m sure ppl from our pai would recognise a set that belongs to our pai being performed under a 'different' style.

particular sets of Pak Hok have 'developed' presunably from exchange of techniques or combining of particular principles just as jon said in his prior post. However, the distinctive Pak Hok or lIon's roar element can be seen from it. the lesser and greater five animal set altho derived from exchange and has its origins from Shaolin is still quite different. the Drunken 8 saints pak hok pai is also very different from the shaolin drunken 8 saints.

with all the secrecy that usually surrounds kung fu the only thing that bugs me is that students should be told what they are being taught to avoid confusion as to what styles they are in fact being taught and what form or technique is coming from what style etc.

I just think that it is important to me the origins of particular sets as they stand now. I do not wish to one day be claiming to teach a lion's roar set that is in fact a direct set i have taken from shaolin 'accidently'. It is also importnat not to take this as a criticism of your masters because i don't even know if they do this or not.

anyway
that was just something that bugged me and i wanted to say something about it

regards,

888

[Gum Gong]

Friday,I agree with you about knowing what's what,and where it came from.Our 8 drunken fairies set is very different from the shaolin version.I think you can have other stuff in you school also but as you said you need to know what's what.Un less your teacher has made a new style(which there's nothing wrong with that).What I was saying about pakhok being so openended was that you can add almost any technique in the world to our footwork and make it work.Our principles apply to everything and can make any system work.Take wing chun for example you could do all their strikes and techniques with our in/out step,or 5 star and make them work.That's what I was saying.Pakhok is a complete system after you do 10,000 of your six strengths(and I speak from experience)they start to become chi gungs.Plus we have cotton needle for internal training,so yes pakhok is a complete system.There are alot of great styles out there, or else they would've died out,but some are superior.Pak Hok is a superior system.I am of course biased,but I talked to Henry Poo Yee(southern mantis grand master)in an elevator once and he is very good friends with Chan Hak Fu and even trained Pak Hok for 5 years when he was younger.

Jon Moore

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Kong,

Grandmaster Ku is the lineage holder from Ng-Yim-Ming, and so IS HOP-GAR. Therefore, if he makes up a form it becomes Hop-Gar, if he teaches a set from another style in his syllabus, that set also becomes part of Hop-Gar. They are some of the privileges of being a lineage holder.

Jon,

FWIW, I tecah Souhern Mantis in the Jook-Lum tradition, not from GM Poo-Yee (whom I respect enormously along with GM Mark Foon as being the inheritors of Lam-Sang's lineage) but from Lee-Yin-Sing's family and Pai, as disciple to GM Lee-Sun-Wah son of Lee-Yin-Sing. I often teach Lion's Roar (after thirty years of training it) in a complementary way with Mantis - they work well together at least for me. I proved them in front line police work, as well as testing Wing-Chun, Hung-Gar and Nothern Shaolin. Lion's Roar and Mantis proved empirically to be the best street fighting styles - again at least in my personal experience.

There is an awful lot of 'pulp' KF out there, some good stuff too, but it is very, very rare. It can take decades to sort this out and many never do. The real 'answer' as such is 'in the hands'. If its 'there' it's real, if not...

One of my Wing-Chun teachers: Samuel Kwok (by ceremony) is the nephew of Luk-Chi-Fu (White Crane)and now disciple to Yip-Chun and Yip-Ching - Yip-Man's sons. We all find what suits us however good our 'family' lineage is. In my case the reverse choice would have been made. Even so one 'mameless' Wing-Chun master once told me that he 'Could use my White Crane to beat any Wing-Chun guy in the world'. That of course would never be admitted too but it was said to me.

Traditional Chinese arts are developing in the West and these coming decades will see an acceleration of the changes of the last three. Some of us will be at the forfront of these changes and some of us will be busy trying to be Chinese.

[friday]

Hi Steve,

if Grandmaster Ku was to take a shaolin form and teach that as Hop Gar. would u still feel the same way?

by that statement i m not suggesting he is...but wondering.

Also i m a bit confused. i have been to a website by David Chin i think he refers to himself as the representative or something of Hop Gar in America.
this lineage stuff in Hop Gar is a bit confusing. Who in fact is the lineage holder? Actually i had this problem with Pak Hok too when i came across the website of a sifu in Canada who alleges he is the representative of Pak Hok. It seems there are so many ppl claiming this and that.

its seems lineage holder, representative stuff is always very highly political. unfortunately, sometimes this chinese kung fu thing and sifus is all a bit depressing. i have actually had personal knowledge of two sifus that would depress a lot of ppl. but i m bound by 'chinese' tradition and 'respect' so i can say nothing. anyway,

thats it for now.

regards

888

[friday]

HI Steve,

no need to reply to my first question. after rereading your post i have found the answer.

the fact that u have combined PM with lions roar is not something i have a problem with.

as a student i would like to know the origins of a particular set if it is not from the style i think i m learning.

regards

888