Bak Hok Pai

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi all,

My line in Si-ji-Hao is thru Chan-Fat-Fu (NOT Chan-Hak-Fu of Bak-Hok - just to be clear, all respects to Chan-Hak-Fu and his Pai). Chan-Fat-Fu is as I've said better known for his Choy-Lay-Fut.
The White Crane that I've seen (in the UK) is quite stiff, as someone said above, but, I can't by any means speak for all of that great Pai.
Chan-Fat-Fu's Lion's Roar is fast, fluid and utilises very powerful transfer of mass and momentum. GM Ku-Chi-Wai of Ng-Yim-Ming lineage in Hop-Gar has said that my Si-Fu's (Steve Richards) Lion's Roar has some Choy-Lay-Fut influences in it - maybe. I respect GM Ku. The Choy-Lay-Fut that I've seen is not very similar to my Si-Fu's teachings. Over the years the Lion's Roar art has diversified very much, maybe we should expect this to happen? I guess if the basics and the principles are there then the art is 'there'?
I a proud of the 'influences' in my art that have come from Tibet - even if changed somewhat over the centuries - just as I am very proud of my Mantis heritage. My Si-Fu has been training in Lion's Roar for nearly thirty years and served 13 years in the frontline as a police officer. I know that he has used it in hundreds of street fights - and his Mantis too. He has studied hung-Gar, Wing-Chun and Northern Shaolin, but always says tha Lion's Roar and the Mantis are (in his experience)the better systems for real fighting.
Maybe... I know it's his position that pesonal belief is not objective, so maybe it would be different for someone else. It's worked for him, so his belief is genuine enough. I noticed that some have said that the Tibetan arts don't spar full contact. My Si-Fu trained us that way (gloves, headguards body armour etc) Also his teacher too, his teacher bust his arm for him using Cum-Na skills in full contact sparring more that 25 years ago. They trained very hard. My Si-Fu is less hard on us! I've been lucky! My teacher emhasises the seed punches and combinations, the tere-san waist power, twisting horse root power, 'chune-ging' and the four principles Chon, Chune, Jeet, Sim, plus two more: Lin-Wan and Fan (switching or reversing). He says: 'Form is not function' but a code like in genetics, read the code and you can achieve very much, just copy it blindly and you can achive very little.

Hope the above helps a little.

[diego]

i start my new job in two hours so i'l get into this tommorrow.

That hop/mantis book,were is the cheapest place i should order and do you know how much it'l be in canadian, i get paid in 2-3 weeks so asap is now...til tommorow.

IT----it says in your bio you have a knowledge on southern kung fu....do you know if the hung master wong-fei-hung and the hop master wong-yan-lam were peers??

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Barefootmantis

"The White Crane that I've seen (in the UK) is quite stiff, as someone said above, but, I can't by any means speak for all of that great Pai."

That's right, my experience has been the stiff versions of white crane. I'm happy for those practitioners who are doing the proper stuff.

"Over the years the Lion's Roar art has diversified very much, maybe we should expect this to happen?"

That's exactly what happens to many styles. it's jsut natural that people interprit things differently. if the crappy stuff isn't weeded out through some means or another, it gets passed on - just like bad genes.

"I guess if the basics and the principles are there then the art is 'there'?"

Well I guess it comes down to what you consider to be the art. How much diffence would it have to be before it's called something else. It's a matter of degree open to interpritation. For example 1.6 is closer to 2.0 than it is to 1.0

"I a proud of the 'influences' in my art that have come from Tibet - even if changed somewhat over the centuries - just as I am very proud of my Mantis heritage."

Are you referring to mantis or crane. if it is mantis (nth), it was developed through a melting pot of many styles which later evolved their different varieties.

Further more harnessing the power from the waist action is crucial. i like the analogy of the gene. Forms can be thought of as consise pieces of code rather than a fighting formulae which many people mistake it to be.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[diego]

.

[Bobbyfalero]

IS the Pai that you first mention from Bak Hok Pai have any relation to GrandMaster Daniel K. Pai from Gong Yuen Chuan Fa family and PAI LUM TAO????

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hi there Ego,

I'll try get my Si-Fu to post here. his Hop-Mantis book contains a lot on what he calls 'information theory' and the 'cultural genetics of martial arts forms'. He also published two scientific papers on martial arts:

'Hyperventilation, trance sattes and suggestion in the martial arts'

'From post modernism to dialectical syncretism, understanding the anthropology and cultural evolution of martial arts systems'.

They were at a conference at a UK university in 1998, July I think, it was Manchester Metropolitan University, Sports and Exercise Science Faculty. The conference was run by a group called the Society of Martial Arts.

My Si-Fu caused a big stir with those papers and his book. He was threatened with Sun-Dar by a UK Mantis practitioner who's also running a Tibetan style religious cult. He wouldn't face my Si-Fu though - just got his students to 'trash him' on internet forums.

The Hop-Mantis book is not traditional, that was the 'problem' he also showed how a lotta western guys get hooked into crap through cult beliefs.
He also introduced a western way of thinking about the martial arts - for western guys, based on classical Greek philosophy - too daring man!!!

My Si-Fu has got first class traditional Chinese martial arts credentials that p***** off some guys cos he can cut it either east or west.

Yep, I'm proud of my Lion's Roar inherritance, and my Mantis is southern Jook-Lum from Lee-Yin-Sing lineage.

[diego]

In my book,hop gar kf by david chin, it says:
triangle
4directions
single flower
7star
pa-kua step
The 5 footwork patterns, named KAY-MEN-BO"the feetplay agianst every1 elses" derived from
JIKBOKLOTOW'S Mu-Fa-Jeong"in wich it states wong-yan-lam spent 11yrs to perfect it.

it says theres 12 longhand/12 shorthand
it says there are a variety of kicks but they are considered secondary techniques.

so you have:
half-step= lead leg shuffles 6-9 inches and the rear follows to end up where lead started.

triangle= quite a few apps; left step out,r outside crescent"kick"step...or just basic shuffle"stance switch, like left and right straight punch"chin choi".

then you have the one-legged???= you can sross step to the opposite side against heavy kicks.
also you can swing your lead leg behind rear"or just shuffle rear bacl after a forward stance crown block and uppercut to groin or bladder'You
rip-up and down groin and crown, while your backleg shuffle back into a one-leg stance"

we have 2 techs that have pakua feetplay

in a left fighting horse agianst r punch"facing 12"/l step to 9 and r step into about 11:45 &
left plam-brush outside his elbow and r striaght to short-ribs.Now your left steps behind your right to 1-o'clock! Spin counter-clockwise;endup in a r cat stance to 5 and left wipes back of neck-upper back/then right slaps back of neck then left palm checks back of neck then right-backfist back of neck then right grabs collar of the back of his shirt!
the 2nd....same step and uppercut instead of straight"or dont just deflect strike"and quickly step behind right"lead"..this time instead of catstance to 5 you end up in a r crane"side bow stance" to 6....while getting thier you while unwind-spin counterclock your left hand wipes the back of his neck or shoulder and the right and does a overhead strike wiping down spine with second row of knuckles like leopard style!

Barefoot Mantis could you break down the 5steps of jikboklotow's mufajeong.....thanks

[diego]

ohya then you have like the centipede step like hsingyi santi"im not to clear with this one"

1 tech i have his
you in lfh vs r bottle smash/
you left step out and r step into 11?! and left crown deflect and r vert spear to armpit then chop
ribs and armbreak hammer groin and dragon claw to face all with the same hand by the hammer his arm should be limp and your left palm guards right shortrib while right dragon claw"thumb and index and middle fingers"

we use the tiger claw ,palm heel then rake.
we use the ridge hand,to groin/temple/kidney/ribs&throat.
straight/wipe/round"inverted backfist"/uppercut/backfist/rake&overhead/chop.
spearhand.
elbows.
the main kicks we train are:
front/side/round/backstraight/backhook/arch/knees.
the slash an inverted round kick with the side of your shoe along knee or face/& the tornadoe kick
as a knockout"you can slash" or agianst low sweeps....i like just to strenthen your hippower.

the main ground kicks are low round and back sweep & low side to knee or ground front to groin.

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hey diego,

My Si-Fu Steve Richards, he teaches his Hop-Gar Mantis system, but he also teaches Mantis on its own, usually he teaches his Lion's Roar with Mantis as they both go so well together - so thats how the combined style came about.

He's very modern (these years anyway) - used to be VERY traditional in the Eastern sense. He's done his bit but now says that he has to acknowledge that he's a Western guy who's learned Eastern martial arts. So, he teaches how to use the stance (in Si-Ji-Hao) as an 'artillery platform' but also as a 'ramming and jamming' weapon. He uses ramming, jamming, drop-step, shuffle step, shuffle leg low-line kicks, drop step punches all in ways that go under 'traditional' names. He's just concerned with going forward and taking the guys balance - just like Wong-Yin-Lum. He tries to 'knock the vertical centre-line out of alignment with the body, as the person MUST then FALL in the direction that his balance plane is moving'. He uses 'long arm - short range' methods with penetration and follow through. He doesn't like 'posturing' or giving any 'bridge' away - just attacking VERY aggressively. He uses loads of destruction techniques and will hit whatever gets in the way.

His Hop-Gar Mantis book, you should know that its not very traditional - in case you are disappointed. It has got one of Chan-Fat-Fu's Si-Ji-Hao forms in it: Sei-Lo-Fun-Dar - 'Four Way Separate Attack'. However, he deleted some moves from the photographs of the openning, and also one whole four directional section involving ramming uppercuts and Key-Lung-Mah to Gung-Tse-Mah footwork. He did this to respect Si-Gung who asked him not to give the whole set away in a book.

Si-Fu's book on Tibetan Kung-Fu (out next year) will cover the fighting theories, basics/fundamentals and 'real world' san-sau applications. Si-Fu Richards is an experienced street fighter and don't give a **** for wasted movements or wasteful training.

He's doin a two volume autobiography at the moment out before Christmas in the UK which tells it all about his life, fights, police work and kung-fu.

I'm seven years older than him (I'm 51). I started Japanese martial arts and did them for 15 years or so. When I met him and trained Japanese style he joked and called me the 'Barefoot Mantis' cos I did it at first in bare feet! Not any more! I learned the hard way!

I've studied all of his pai from him, but I can't claim to be a Master, I'm still just an 'ol 'Barefoot Mantis' hobblin' round learnin wha I can!

[diego]

ya im not much traditional in respects to my study.
Im all technique combination theoretical drills"have about 120 of them"
i have the warmup wich gives you the main frame.
then theres 1opunch/10kick combos....really just for flow and it has the essence of bridging the gap!.then theres 13 sets i have for sure 4 of them but i learnt advanced application before i learnt the groundwork sets for good frame in one's study of progressive application........
so i can see the gist off the system by seeing applications in the differant sections..gotta go

[friday]

Sorry Silent Dragon, I don't think so...at least so far as I am aware. You could be referring to the other White Crane Style that exists.

888

[friday]

I have seen 'stiff' Pak Hok martial artists. Actually I used to be one of them...;)
I have also had the privelege to see Pak Hok Pai people who perform techniques and forms as they should be. These aren't stiff. Fast, powerful and flowing. I have also had the opportunity to see min lui jum (cotton-needle forms) being performed by different masters. I think the stiffness just reflects the experience and skill level of the students and sifus.
Unfortunately, I think there are quite a few people out there who aren't that good (me included :).

888

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Barefootmantis,

Would it be possible for your instructor to email me a soft copy of his research paper? My experience in martial arts indicates that those eastern mystical beliefs can be excluded without compromising the combat ability of the style.

Did your instructor have a sceintific or maths background? I view forms as a meqns of setting up the parameters of the system. Through experience you explore the solution space defined by the parameters. Not many people train like that and as a result after 20+ years of training the arte still crap fighters.

Unfortunately many southern styles trained this way. Northern styles - many of them suffer the same fate. Perhaps it's because instructors tend be become more insterested in following the cultural heritage rather than looking at the problem from a logical angle.

I agree that the Japanese culture is prone to following rules. Maybe it's the samye way in communist China when the population is persuaded not to think so much!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[Barefoot Mantis]

Hey Ego,

Si-Fu will send the files on today. His background is in psychotherapy and anthropology, also the study of trance states and respiratory psychophysiology.

The cultural genetics bit is in the Hop book I think, if the diagram is not in the papers best check there, but I think that the basis of it is discussed in the anthropology paper.

He looks at the whole style as the genotype, the individuals expression of it as the cultural phenotype, the individual moves in a form are the cultural genes, the sequences of movements are 'gene sequences' and the forms are chromosomes. He talks about 'transcription errors'
and so on.

On another forum he posted a topic under 'Darwin's Mantis's' and got badly attacked by some dick heads but a few understood. It was based on that Darwin man, and his research on isolated populations of birds: 'Darwin's Finches' developing differently from a common genetic stock. Si-Fu said that Jook-Lum (and maybe Hop too) was like that, it was bound to evolve, but still have 'common ancestors'. That don' go down at all well with pure 'traditionalists'!

[friday]

Diego, may i ask you how you obtained those videos of forms, techniques?
I don't think they were sold to you , right???
your sifu must trust you which is good.
I think it was a great idea when my sifu gave me video tapes of the forms i have learnt in order to ensure that i didn't forget them.
by the way do u learn the combined hop gar and mantis system? does that mean you do not know any of the 'original' forms that lions roar is comprised of. or your sifu also teaches that too.
also having had a think about it, i think that repetitiveness of pak hok fighers could be because some teachers of Pak Hok have broken up the in/out step into smaller versions in which each of the 'six strengths' are broken up and repeated in the separate versions.
The traditional form of lau sing kuen (shooting stars form) comprises of around 200 techniques. Fei Hok Kuen 'flying crane fists' is a little less than that. These two forms make up the Pak Hok in/out step form. The reason why it was broken down to two sets was because the whole form in the one shot is over 300 techniques with each movement/technique with its own reference. My sifu has also shown how these two sets are combined together.
I would like to give mor detail to people I trust. But I am not sure my sifu would feel comfortable if i started distributing forms to everyone on the internet who i don't know very well. Thats why i think the network of tibetan ma will help.
I plan to teach Pak Hok Pai in the future in Australia. This will give me the opportunity to meet the people i will teach and i wish to spread Pak Hok Kung Fu around the whole of Australia.

Barefoot Mantis, send me an email look out for the network for tibetan MA. :) cheers

888