Black Tiger Steals Heart - 7 Star

[Mantis9]

Mantis108.

Could you clarify your difference between "breaking and entering" and "open and sneak in" as it pretains to BTSH. If I understand you correctly, this designate how the heart is stolen, yes? Pershaps, Bei Tang Lang's description of a 'blockless' series be the 'open and sneak in' and the left hand suspending the opponent's left arm to strike the other.

I am familiar with this technique, however from what I'm reading hear it seems the essence of BTSH lies in it striking the heart meridian and the employment of either soft method 2 "If Attacked, Then Reach The Opponent First," 10 "Deflect An Attack Upward Then Attack" or 11 "Open The Opponents Inside Gates Then Attack Close Inside."

Comments?

[mantis108]

Hi Mantis9,

Good question.

Breaking and entering would be deflecting and/or bouncing off a bridge or both (usually aquired the inner gate already). It can be done with chopping motion (sort of defanging) as well. Upside is that it is very speedy attack. The downside is that you have no control of the opponant's hands. That could lead to a slug fest kick boxing plight. With open and sneak in, you have some control over at least one bridge, which you can use it for your reserved moves (ie Chin Na), should he has good listening skill and able to counter your steal heart punch that is targeting the solar plex (re: 8 forbiden strike). Both methods have their own merit. Personally, I prefer safty then speedy.

I agreed that the some 12 fluid principle can be used in conjunction with the punch. But then we have to be careful not to go so far as to deminish the original intent of the concept of Stealing in PM.

BTW, I am not familiar with BeiTanglang's drill. So I can't comment on that. If he doesn't mind sharing his drill, we might get a better perspective with it. A somewhat blockless BTSH move indeed exsit in CCK TCPM. It is just one move not five though.

Regards

Mantis108

[mantisben]

************************************************** **
BeiTangLang, if understanding the BTSH as a theory, then whether you grab going from #3 to #4 is irrelevant since you would have already created the middle opening for the #4 punch. Some of the forms such as Daw Ghong illustrate this technique with the left hand in a supporting position near the right shoulder (w/o grab).
************************************************** **

BTSH is one of my favorite techniques and I didn't even know it by name! One of the 2 ways I execute it is:

1) Right Monkey(?)/Hiking stance, throw a right Filing Punch
2) As soon as I see the opponent's right hand try to block the punch, I "clear" with the left hand, then shuffle into a horse stance and "Steal The Heart" with a right Drilling Punch to the ribs, left hand near shoulder. Usually, it is easier for me to strike the ribs than the "Heart". I guess I just need to practice more.

What a great thread!!! What a great technique!!! Since Yue Fei was know for this technique, I'll bet it was *GAME OVER* for whoever's "Heart" he was "Stealing"!!

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
<snip>
BeiTangLang, if understanding the BTSH as a theory, then whether you grab going from #3 to #4 is irrelevant since you would have already created the middle opening for the #4 punch. Some of the forms such as Daw Ghong illustrate this technique with the left hand in a supporting position near the right shoulder (w/o grab). Meanwhile, other forms such as Tchap Tchoi illustrate the technique with the left hand high above the head as you execute the #4 punch (w/ grab). In either case, the technique is still BTSH. The difference is whether or not you control one of your opponent's hand when doing this technique and also the flavor of how you apply it.
***
I suppose that it is because we use HFTS (BTSH) as a set unto itself as well as a theory.
Grabing in between #3 & #4 can accomplish the same end, but as you stated, it is "irrelevant since you would have already created the middle opening for the #4 punch.". Hence the "stealing" of the heart rather than it being just another trapping motion if you grab. In either case it is called a heart stealing punch, but as a set of motions, I feel (and this is just my opinion & you know what opinions are like) the triple upper, one to the heart & another upper strike in done quickly without grabbing best encompasses the BTSH as a stated technique.
Thank you very much for sharing your insight on this & I will re-evaluate my thoughts on this as I continue my training.
***

Going even further, BTSH does not have to be executed from a horse stance just as Mantis108 has stated that it does not have to be a reverse punch as is the case in most of the forms. In fact, when applying BTSH with the Sun fist, I am usually in a cross-leg or twisting stance.

***
Interesting. I will have to work on this a bit to understand what you are saying. I am guessing that you are talking about BTSH as a theory at this point?
Thanks again.
***

Great thread and good luck to all in your training.

YM

Indeed a great thread & thanks again for your input.
~BTL

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantis108
... First, we will have to understand the concept of stealing in PM. It is generally understood as open the gate (door) or rather defense and "sneak in" to take something (a shot). There are myraid of ways to open the gate. BTW, IMHO there is a difference between "breaking and entering" and "open and sneak in". Wether by attack low first (restain opponent's counter hand) and then attack high (restain opponent's counter hand) to achieve what we would consider an opened position (of the opponent) [re: high low] and then perform the steal heart punch, or vice versa with the protocol it is the same. So we can develop many different drills out of the concept. The key point to remember is that Stealing unlike Trapping, the window of opportunity is very small. If the guy has very good listening skill in his hands, the rate of success is not very high; therefore, a rapid firing of the steal heart punch is very important. You don't take all day to steal from people. ...

Hope that helps.

Mantis108

Yes, this helps very much and there is so much to digest here. Stealing vs. Breaking & Entering, this sheds much light on the forms and there is much for me to re-consider with this way.

thank-you mantis108,
UM.

[mantis108]

Hi Ursa Major,

You are most welcome. Glad you find this of help. I hope others will share more inputs soon.

Regards

Mantis108

[mantisben]

Is #9 of 7* PM 14 Road Tam Tui (Filing Punch, Clear, Drilling Fist) the same as the Black Tiger Steals the Heart?

[Mantis9]

beauty of PM. Its like good jazz. You take a tune like twinkle twinkle little 7* and add and subtract layers of variation. Tweek it there, smooth it out there. Be more explict like a Charlie Parker or implict like a Miles Davis.

The technique is there, but, as most have described already, the intent, setup, transition, execution, and follow up can all be changed, being "careful," as Mantis108 stated, "not to go so far as to deminish the original intent of the concept."

I believe this is why so many of the post reflect a "waitaminute, I do something similar, but it looks like..." theme.

Just my two cents

[Tainan Mantis]

mantisben,
The 9th exercise you refer to is called "stick" hand. As in the 7th rigid technique from the 8 rigid 12 flexible.

The Stick technique is done by "B"

A: right stance-right low straight punch

B: right stance-left sealing hand(pushing down type block/grab)-
right inverted straight punch(your filing punch)

A:right high block(bi sho/closing hand)

B:left lifting hand-to lift A's high block even higher so it can't go down,
right low straight punch

Last year I opened on a thread on this specific technique, stick, because in several cases different characters were used which completely changed the meaning.

It seems that there is a difference in different schools on what this technique is.
The above method follows my teacher, Shr Zhengzhong's, teaching as well as WHF and Luo Guangyu's 14 roads.

On looking at the older manuscripts in Ilya Profatilov's collection, as well as some other related sources, the word "bind" is used.
They both sound similar, but "stick" and "bind" have different implications.

Anyway, the stick method works very well and is comprised in many styles of MA.

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for the book names.
Those look like Chinese history books.
That is better than reading the translation if your Chinese reading ability is top notch, but mine isn't. I like to read the translation.
The exception is those books that will probably never be translated into English such as MA specific books.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
mantisben,
The 9th exercise you refer to is called "stick" hand. As in the 7th rigid technique from the 8 rigid 12 flexible.

Forgive my ignorance, but according to the references that I use for the 8 Rigid and 12 Flexible Methods (mainly Lee Kam Wing's first book), the 7th rigid method is something like "Left & Right Alternate Roundhouse Punches".

Is there a chance that you meant the 9th Flexible Method "Attacking Instantly After the Downward Pressing Movement"?

Do you know of any detailed descriptions/explanations of the 8 Rigid Methods and the 12 Flexible Methods anywhere on the internet? Are they exclusive to Northern 7* PM or are they present in other Chinese Martial Arts?

Also, did you ever learn the different implications between between "Bind" and "Stick"?

[mantisben]

Tainan Mantis,

Pardon my newsgroup ettiquete.

Thank you for replying to my post.

I have MUCH respect for your knowledge of Martial Arts. I've read many of your posts and they absolutely sound like they are coming from someone with profound knowlege and respect for Martial Arts.

Thank you for sharing!

[Tainan Mantis]

mantisben,
No prob on the ettiquete, from my experience all MArtists are polite and humble face to face with only rare exceptions.
But it is hard to type politely.

About your Lee Kamwing reference for the 7th rigid you are correct.

But other sources list the 7th rigid as I have written it.
Most notably is WHF's copy of the ancient Sheng Shao Dao Ren manuscript.
I have been wondering why Lee's book has this one difference which I consider to be quite a big deal.

The 8 rigid-12 flexible are part of the oldest PM traditions and date to at least Sheng Shao's 1764 book.
There are only some hand copied versions available and they don't match exactly. Ancient versions of the typo.

Supposedly Sheng Shao copied from older Song texts which is the basis for the Wang Lang from the Song history. In fact there is some historical evidence for this, but until everyone makes public their versions of the ancient manuscripts it will be hard to verify conclusively.

The earliest written version of 8R-12F that I know of is a short passage in a Ming dynasty book. But it refers to weapons and, at least in my mind, is a loose puzzle piece.

BTW, Stick as in staff. A noun that has no relation to the verb "to stick".

[mantisben]

Thank you for responding to my post, and answering my questions.

[Laviathan]

The exception is those books that will probably never be translated into English such as MA specific books.

It's hard to find good books on Chinese history nowadays, and those ones that are good don't go into detail on Yue Fei's life.

But I can translate the biography of Yue Fei into English for you, if you're interested?