Black Tiger Steals Heart - 7 Star

[ursa major]

I have been intrigued by this method, "Black Tiger Steals the Heart" since I first heard about it. As far as I am aware it is specific to 7 Star but I am no authority on this.

I may have been practicing this method for several years without knowing it as I was not taught to associate this classic name with any given form, method or technique.

I would very much appreciate it if someone could enlighten me on what it is ? Does anyone know what it is or in which forms it shows up in ?

Also, what are "8 Forbidden Strikes" ? Is Black Tiger Steals the Heart one of them ?

Also, do we know how Black Tiger system got into 7 Star (or PM in general ?) and what is the distinctive characteristic of Black Tiger ? I am aware that there is a "Black Tiger" system, is this where it came from ?

thx in advance,
UM.

[mantis108]

"I have been intrigued by this method, "Black Tiger Steals the Heart" since I first heard about it. As far as I am aware it is specific to 7 Star but I am no authority on this. "

First a recap:

In 7* 14 Road Tan Tui

Road #5 He Hu Tou Shin (Black Tiger Steal Heart).

1. Right Avoid Hardness Ready for Foe disposition (or Right Bi Shr)
2. Right Hiking stance Right filing punch/upper cut
3. Right Hiking Stance Left straigh punch (to the face)
4. Horse stance Right steal heart punch
5. Right Forearm Chop plus Left low kick
6. Repeat to the above (Left side this time)
...

This solo exercise is similar to a partnered drill which Tainan Showed me. In Tainan's drill step 2 to 4 is shadowed by the partner. So both side repeated the same 3 moves (very important they count as 3 counts) targeting at face and solar plex. In a sense, it's like Kali sticks drills. This partnered drill is main right hand and centerline oriented. It also employs 2 important concept - centerline and simultaneous offense and defense. As seen in the above, the power generation method is more of a Long Fist type (twisting of the hip) while the power generation method that Tainan showed me is more of Inch power delivery. Having said that, I must say that they are just different ways to carry out the power generation. It does not mean that one method is superior than the other. Also Tainan's drill is like a "hanger" or a connecting hub which many different techniques can attach to it or even other show drills can be added on to form a even more complicated drill.

Apparantly, the 14 Road Tan Tui partnered version of this road as designed by GM LGY is not a shadow drill. It would seem that he had something else in mind. If anyone is interested I will further discuss this.

"Ironically I may have been practicing this method for several years without knowing it as I was not taught to associate this classic name with any given form, method or technique. "

I hear you. I believe we really need to canonize PM terminology.

"I would very much appreciate it if someone could enlighten me on what it is ? Does anyone know what it is or in which forms it shows up in ? "

Like you, I would love to find out more about it too.

"Also, what are "8 Forbidden Strikes" ? Is Black Tiger Steals the Heart one of them ? "

8 Forbidden Strikes (Baat Butt Da in Cantonese) and 8 Strikes (Baat Da) are targets to strikes at. 8 Forbiden strikes are lethal areas and 8 strikes are not so lethal. In CCK TCPM Sau Fa, there is a Black Tiger Steals the Heart techniques (different form the above drill) which uses the attack without blocking concept. We have a thread about the BBD and the BD on TJPM forum before. I will have to look it up and post a link if you are interested.

"Also, do we know how Black Tiger system got into 7 Star (or PM in general ?) and what is the distinctive characteristic of Black Tiger ? I am aware that there is a "Black Tiger" system, is this where it came from ?

Laviathan wrote:

Black Tiger
According to Yuen Man Kai's book "Northern Mantis Black Tiger Intersectional Boxing", the Song dynasty general Yue Fei learned martial arts from master Zhou Tong. Prior to this, Zhou Tong already taught two disciples, Lin Chong and Lu Junyi. The Black Tiger Stealing the Heart technique was the favorite technique of Yue Fei. The fighting styles of both Lin Chong and Lu Junyi was used by Wang Lang to create the Praying Mantis style. It is possible that the Black Tiger technique was a skill of Zhou Tong which was passed on to Lin Chong, Lu Junyi and Yue Fei respectively.

I am not sure how this can be substantiated. Lin Chong and Lu Junyi would be 2 fictional characters (like Ying Ching) that came from the novel "Water Margin". There are claims that Lin Chong and Ying Ching were real people and created MA styles which is noted in the "18 styles Peom" [I have actually seen the title said "Discourse of Short Strikes" not 18 styles poem] . How does the teacher of General Yue (accredited creator of Eagle claw and possiblely the strongest advocate of adopting Xing Yi into Chinese military system.) relate to Black Tiger style (in Shandong)? Remember Shandong was not within Song Emperors' control at all throughout the Song dynasty, which was a very weak regime. It would be interesting to see the connection. Until then we'll have to treat this piece of info with caution.

Regards

Mantis108

[Laviathan]

TO MANTIS108:

I agree that the story about Zhou Tong and Yue Fei are based on legends and can not be considered 100% correct. I am sceptical about it myself. But I do want to add some personal views on this matter:

I am not sure how this can be substantiated. Lin Chong and Lu Junyi would be 2 fictional characters (like Ying Ching) that came from the novel "Water Margin". There are claims that Lin Chong and Ying Ching were real people and created MA styles which is noted in the "18 styles Peom"

The story of the Water Margin novel is based on real historical events (the uprising of 36 heroic bandits in Shandong Province) . The author Shi Nai An took the names of these 36 heroes and added 72 fictional characters. But the most important ones like their leader Song Jiang etc. were real historical persons. So Lu Junyi, Lin Chong and Yan Qing might have existed as well. It is said that the Mandarin Leg Method of Lin Chong and the Tumbling Techniques of Yan Qing were two of the 18 styles which formed the foundation of Wang Lang's Praying Mantis system.

Remember Shandong was not within Song Emperors' control at all throughout the Song dynasty, which was a very weak regime.

You're mistaken. The area of Shandong Province was part of the Song Empire during the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1126) but it was occupied by the Jin during the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1279). Zhou Tong, Lu Junyi, Lin Chong and Yan Qing (if they really existed) lived during the end of the Northern Song while Yue Fei lived during the transition of Northern to Southern Song. During that time, Shandong Province was still Song territory.

It would be interesting to see the connection. Until then we'll have to treat this piece of info with caution.

I totally agree with you on this.

Bye,

Lav

[mantis108]

First and foremost, welcome to the board and the discussion.

"I agree that the story about Zhou Tong and Yue Fei are based on legends and can not be considered 100% correct. I am sceptical about it myself. But I do want to add some personal views on this matter: "

Glad you feel the samw way.

"The story of the Water Margin novel is based on real historical events (the uprising of 36 heroic bandits in Shandong Province) . The author Shi Nai An took the names of these 36 heroes and added 72 fictional characters. But the most important ones like their leader Song Jiang etc. were real historical persons. So Lu Junyi, Lin Chong and Yan Qing might have existed as well. It is said that the Mandarin Leg Method of Lin Chong and the Tumbling Techniques of Yan Qing were two of the 18 styles which formed the foundation of Wang Lang's Praying Mantis system. "

Now, this is indeed most fascinating in that the 18 styles of which 2 are possiblely created or mastered by Lin Chong and Yin Ching who were bandits at the time and were showcased or rather invited to teach at the Henan Shaolin Temple; thus, was alledgely recorded by the abbot of the time. The timeline is very important here. It might make or break an important claim that Wang Lang was a Song dynasty figure rather than a Ming dynasty one. So we have to treat this very carefully.

"You're mistaken. The area of Shandong Province was part of the Song Empire during the Northern Song Dynasty (960-1126) but it was occupied by the Jin during the Southern Song Dynasty (1127-1279). Zhou Tong, Lu Junyi, Lin Chong and Yan Qing (if they really existed) lived during the end of the Northern Song while Yue Fei lived during the transition of Northern to Southern Song. During that time, Shandong Province was still Song territory. "

Thank you for pointing that out. I might have mistaken but I will double check on it. So as the theory goes, if Wang Lang was a contemporate of Lin Chong and Yin Ching then he would have lived arround 1126 CE and his stuff would be arround just a bit early then General Yue; however, such a formidable style didn't catch the eyes of a great general? I find that totally unexplandable. I mean General Chi, during the Ming dynasty recorded what he deemed as powerful systems of fighting especially related to his line of work. Granted, General Chi didn't mention TangLangquan neither. But He did mentioned 8 Hard and 12 fluid principles (for weapon training not hand to hand combat). So personally, I found these material points more to Wang Lang not likely to be a Song dynasty figure and might not even have set foot on the Henan Shaolin temple. BTW, that's just my views.


quote:
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It would be interesting to see the connection. Until then we'll have to treat this piece of info with caution.
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I totally agree with you on this.

Great, thanks. I would love to hear more of this stuff from you. Thanks for the pleasurable sharing.

Regards

Mantis108

PS, I think Lin Chong is good at spear as well (as per the novel) and that might just be the reason of his developing good kicking skill. I will discuss that if someone is interested.

[Young Mantis]

This is indeed an interesting discussion and while I can't say I'm am very well versed in my Chinese history or the novel, "The Water Margin", I have also heard all these stories and theories before.

However, I don't recall that these legendary figures were ever claimed to be contemporaries of Wang Lang. Even though the poem and our history credits them as being 2 of the 18 styles making up the Praying Mantis System, I don't ever recall hearing that Wang Lang studied those styles directly from these two men.

I would think it more likely, since our history says that Wang Lang was alive during the Ming dynasty, that he took the special skills of these famous martial artists which even at his time were figures in history and added them to the style.

Just my thoughts on this discussion.

YM

[Laviathan]

To MANTIS108:

Thank you! It is an interesting theory that Wang Lang was a man of the Song dynasty instead of the Ming. Throughout Chinese history, people have used events from the past to reflect current political situations. The Northern Song dynasty was destroyed by the Yürched tribe who established the Jin dynasty. The Yürched were the ancestors of the Manchurians who, centuries later, overthrew the Ming and founded the Qing dynasty. Legend says that Wang Lang was a martial artist living at the end of the Ming who saw the uprising of the Manchurians. But if Wang Lang lived during the end of the Song, his lifestory would have been almost exactly the same (downfall of dynasty, bandits and rebels everywhere, invasion of foreign tribe etc), just a different timeline. Could it be that Wang Lang was actually a Song person whose lifestory was used by Ming dynasty martial artists to reflect the political situation of that time? Just a thought.

General Yue Fei might not have learned about Wang Lang's Praying Mantis (if Wang Lang really lived at that time) because Wang Lang was still developing his style while Yue Fei was busy fighting the Jin. When Wang Lang was ready, Yue Fei might have already died. Or Yue Fei might not have been interested in Wang Lang's Praying Mantis because it is an unarmed fighting style which is great for self-defense and hand-to-hand combat, but is not really effective in 12th century warfare. But then again, I don't know how ANCIENT Praying Mantis was like...

During my humble research on Praying Mantis kungfu, I once searched for the name of Wang Lang in Chinese history books. Turned out that this name was quite common, almost every dynasty had a Wang Lang...

But lastly, I would like to say that I actually share the view of YOUNG MANTIS.

But it is still an interesting theory though...

Maybe you'll have to find out about the other 16 styles... did all of them already exist during Northern/Southern Song?

[mantis108]

Hi Laviathan and Young Mantis

First off, thanks for the inputs. I feel that I should clarify my position on different theories out there about the origin of PM. Here are some of them

1) Wang Lang being a Song dynasty figure (contemporate of Emporer Zhao Kuangyin [927-976 CE] ) and taught a style know as Tanglangquan at the shaolin temple throught the invite of the Abbot at the time. There seems to be claims that this could be support by historic documents (ie an article similar to the 18 style poem recently discovered) which I have heard of but not read them. This form of TLQ is believed to be have nothing to do with current TLQ in Shandong province which is passed down mainly through one main source GM Liang Xue Xiang (1810 -?). BTW, there is a suggestion that Wang Lang's TLQ passed down to a nameless outlaw and somehow the GM Liang's Grandteacher learned it for the outlaw.

2) Wang Lang being a late Ming and early Qing dynasty figure and retired at a Taoist temple in Lao Shan mountain (Shandong province). It is through a wandering Taoist that TLQ brought Wang Lang's creation to the secular world. There is a dedication at the temple (nick name Wang Lang temple) on Lao Shan Mountain to commerate that. However, there is a suggestion that this might be a fabrication for tourist attraction.

3) Wang Lang is merely a legendary figure. The current TLQ was brought back to Shandong province by GM Li Bingxiao who learned it from a nameless outlaw during the Qing dynasty (Qianlong reign 1736-1796). This might be the reason for adopting Hsing Xiao Dao Ren's Shaolin Classics series to hide the fact that a government offical (GM Li) learned a martial art from an outlaw. Much of the TLQ concepts, theory and perhaps even forms are the effort of GM Liang. This is support mainly by the local news articles, city records, etc. BTW, CCK TCPM's own accounts on this matter shows a lot of similarities to this. Except it somehow skipped 2 generations. So it became the outlaw taught GM Liang instead of GM Li. Also the inclusion of Wang Lang as well.

Personally, I am more inclined to go with theory #2 and/or #3 but I played devil's advocate for #1 until it can be ruled out entirely with undisbutable prove. It is hard for me to think that the modern Wushu Disneyland (Henan Shaolin Temple) has anything to do with the current Shandong Tanglangquan.

Regards

Mantis108

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantis108
[B...First a recap:

In 7* 14 Road Tan Tui

Road #5 He Hu Tou Shin (Black Tiger Steal Heart).

1. Right Avoid Hardness Ready for Foe disposition (or Right Bi Shr)
2. Right Hiking stance Right filing punch/upper cut
3. Right Hiking Stance Left straigh punch (to the face)
4. Horse stance Right steal heart punch
5. Right Forearm Chop plus Left low kick
...
Regards
Mantis108 [/B]

From the original post this thread has turned into a vine of knowledge. Mantis108, Laviathan and Young Mantis -- thx to you all for your time and effort in making your knowledge public and available to all of us.

Now as fascinating as the history discussion is, I would like to spend a moment to clarify on Road #5 of 14 Road Tan Tui, He Hu Tou Shin.

On another post there was a suggestion that the 2nd Set of Route Essence contains the 'Black Tiger Steals Heart' method. But after reading your 5 step method I cannot find the combination in the order you have it in 2nd Set -- or any other forms that I practice.

Many of the 7 Star forms I practice have a particular 5 step routine of simultaneous attack and defence. Here is the 5 step method I have been taught through various forms that I had previously thought might be 'Black Tiger Steals Heart' method:

1) right medium stance with right hook intercepting from left to right with left hand supporting.
2) right hiking stance with left palm to center with right hook.
3) right hiking stance with right intercept hook and left hammer chop.
4) right horse stance with left intercept hand and right drilling punch.
5) right hiking stance with left palm trap and right back-fist.

This sequence typically ends with a right toe kick as you fall back to a 'cat' stance with both palms in ready position.

I thought the 5 step method that I described above was the 'Black Tiger Steals Heart' but it differs in too many ways from your account.

The 7 Star Black Tiger forms (Cross, Steps From Cave and Steals Peaches) that I practice have all 5 of the steps as you describe them but never in that order.

Do you know if WHF has a book on 14 Road Tan Tui ? Perhaps I need to see or learn this form to resolve this issue of mine ?

thx for your comments,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

ursa major,
On your 5 techniques defining BTSH I am having trouble following.
Intercept is jie, which is not used in this technique.
I don't understand drilling punch, but I do understand palm trap.
Palm trap is feng or sealing hand. It always precedes that backfist.

On the quote from Mantis 108 2-4 are BTSH. But the essence of it is in 3 &4.

On your 5 techniques it is what you wrote before #5, the backfist.

Working Backwards:
In HK 7* 2nd route of Essentials it is the two or three techniques preceding the backfist -groin kick-closing hands(your ready position)

WHF has giving some good explanations on this as well as mentioning Yueh Fei. I'll post it later.

[Tainan Mantis]

Laviathan,
I am always looking for good history books.
Which books go into detail about Yueh Fei?

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
ursa major,
On your 5 techniques defining BTSH I am having trouble following.
Intercept is jie, which is not used in this technique.
I don't understand drilling punch, but I do understand palm trap.
Palm trap is feng or sealing hand. It always precedes that backfist.

On the quote from Mantis 108 2-4 are BTSH. But the essence of it is in 3 &4.

On your 5 techniques it is what you wrote before #5, the backfist.

Working Backwards:
In HK 7* 2nd route of Essentials it is the two or three techniques preceding the backfist -groin kick-closing hands(your ready position)

WHF has giving some good explanations on this as well as mentioning Yueh Fei. I'll post it later.

Tainan Mantis thx for your post. I was hoping not to create more confusion from my poor description of 5 steps in the form -- my apologies.

Drilling Punch - is for example while in right hiking stance facing north then intercept opponent's attack with your left outside fore-arm turning this into a grab of attacker's limb and pulling it high to south with left arm while turning to right horse stance on north/south axis as you do so, then punch due north with right fist to opponent's mid-section. This is a common posture in many 7 Star forms that I practice and can be seen often in WHF books -- horse stance, left fist high over head or left shoulder, and right fist striking straight as an arrow to the side. I picked up the term 'drilling punch' from my Li Kam Wing book.

Tainan Mantis do I understand correctly that the essence of BTSH is the two step method of left face strike (high) in right hiking stance followed by transition to right horse stance with left grab and right punch low to mid-section ? If so then I have finally solved my riddle of what is BTSH for this is in just about every 7 Star form (if not every form) I practice.

Thx also for the insight of working backwards from the backfist -groin kick-closing hands. This makes it all much clearer. Do you plan on writing any books on 7 Star or have you written any books yet ?

thx,
UM.

[BeiTangLang]

UM,..I think this is correct except for the grabing when throwing the heart stealing "piercing" punch. In my studies, (I know there are always variations), this is a "block-less" punching series of movements that happen in a very rapid (5 movement) succession<sp>.

Anyway, I have enjoyed this thread & hope this is not the last of the informative posts.

~BTL

[mantis108]

I must say I enjoyed the history discussion alot. But time to get back to technique.

First off, we have to remember that a drill is only a mean to an end not the other way around. There are myraid of drills to convey the same concepts and techniques. In the HHTS there are 2 major components to remember - the concept of stealing (Tou) and the technique of steal heart punch.

First, we will have to understand the concept of stealing in PM. It is generally understood as open the gate (door) or rather defense and "sneak in" to take something (a shot). There are myraid of ways to open the gate. BTW, IMHO there is a difference between "breaking and entering" and "open and sneak in". Wether by attack low first (restain opponent's counter hand) and then attack high (restain opponent's counter hand) to achieve what we would consider an opened position (of the opponent) [re: high low] and then perform the steal heart punch, or vice versa with the protocol it is the same. So we can develop many different drills out of the concept. The key point to remember is that Stealing unlike Trapping, the window of opportunity is very small. If the guy has very good listening skill in his hands, the rate of success is not very high; therefore, a rapid firing of the steal heart punch is very important. You don't take all day to steal from people.

Second, Steal heart punch can be done in 3 ways.

1) a reversed punch (crockcrew and fist heart face down)
hip twist type power generation. Kind of drilling because of the crockscrew motion

2) a Sun punch (fist heart faces left for the right punch)
hip twist or one inch type power generation

3) a pheonix eye or eagle beak punch (this would really be drilling)
torquing type power generation

With these 2 key points in mind, I think you can see the HHTS as it is. BTW tiger refers to the powerful right hand punch (left hand hanging high or chambered). So most of the HHTS drills conventionally has the right hand punch in horse stance as the pièce de résistance since tiger occupies the right side in Chinese culture.

Hope that helps.

Mantis108

[Laviathan]

TO TAINAN MANTIS:

I do not know about any good books specifically on Yue Fei. My knowledge of Yue Fei I got from reading his biography in the Nan Song Shi (History of Southern Song), which is quite detailed.

Ershiwu Shi Xinpian Xilie: Bei Song Shi/ Nan Song Shi
Editors: Zhou B., Wang Z., Yang Q.
Publisher: Zhonghua Shuju (Hongkong) Limited
1998
ISBN 962 231 928 9

You can also try this book:

Zhongguo Jiangshuai Dazhuan
Publisher: Gongshang Chubanshe, China

Many books on Yue Fei are more based on legends than on historical facts. The above-mentioned 2 books are quite good, hope you can find them.

Hope this can help you.

Lav

[Young Mantis]

That was a greatly detailed description of Black Tiger Steals Heart by Mantis108 and I would agree with everything said about it although personally, I don't train the phoenix eye punch very much.

I'm sure this has been said in one way or another already but BTSH as illustrated by 7* 14 Road Drill #5 can be broken as thus:
- the technique of actually taking the heart is shown by #4.
- the theory of BTSH incorporates the combo #3-4 as the preceding high punch sets up the opening for the Steal Heart punch (as pointed out by Tainan and exactly what Mantis108 was describing about stealing).

BeiTangLang, if understanding the BTSH as a theory, then whether you grab going from #3 to #4 is irrelevant since you would have already created the middle opening for the #4 punch. Some of the forms such as Daw Ghong illustrate this technique with the left hand in a supporting position near the right shoulder (w/o grab). Meanwhile, other forms such as Tchap Tchoi illustrate the technique with the left hand high above the head as you execute the #4 punch (w/ grab). In either case, the technique is still BTSH. The difference is whether or not you control one of your opponent's hand when doing this technique and also the flavor of how you apply it.

Going even further, BTSH does not have to be executed from a horse stance just as Mantis108 has stated that it does not have to be a reverse punch as is the case in most of the forms. In fact, when applying BTSH with the Sun fist, I am usually in a cross-leg or twisting stance.

Great thread and good luck to all in your training.

YM