Park's Pakua

[razakdigital]

I was at the Tomb imyself. We have pictures and video footage dealing with the translation of the tomb itself. What I learn was anybody was capable of putting their name on a tomb or the own slab as well. To prove that point Yin Fu was not a main feature at the tomb. Liang Zhen Pu and Li Zi Ming lineage was the big crew that is all over that tribute area as TBT highlighted in the earlier post.

What does this say to me? That politics was an influence in that Tomb. It's about money over proper (or what I might deem as proper) lineage description.

Concerning the original question about Sifu Park's name on the "stele" for those that are interested in Pa Kua to make a journey there and see. I didn't go to the tomb to worry about any particular person name on tombs or not. I went to learn and be in the presence of a great martial artist energy and burial site. What I got out of it is a big history lesson that any Pa Kua practitioner should go and see for themselves. Books and pictures can be used to tell the author's story and not necessarily the true story. Moslems go to Mecca, Catholics go to the Vatican, and Pa Kua practitioners should go to Beijing to see the tomb.

[maoshan]

Very Good Razak.
Thats the way it should be. but it's hard to go to beijing for most.
And let's not forgetn that you do have to go with a reconized representitive. other than that you can't get in.

As far as park goes, in my opinion, his people scream about the fact that park is the only american practitioner with his name on the tomb, as if that makes them lineage holders or something. well, as my classmate has pointed out clearly, The contribution section and the Lineage section have nothing to do with each other. Now that that's dead maybe they'll work harder on making that delusion into a reality through hard core training.

Now Yin,
It's deffenitly foul.
The problem is the Yin family today is poor so when it came time to contribute they couldn't help, and because of that, Yin wasn't placed with Cheng who we know taught the most students so of course he would have the largest contributors.

However, Li Zi Ming's Ba-Gua is a combo of Cheng and Yin style.
so in a small way yin is honored.
But when you think, that Yin was the first and Top student and they wouldn't put his name, even in mention, on the tomb.
and to show you how far they've gone, they even took down the original stele that named the first 56 of Dong's 72 students.
That, I don't understand at all.
Why?
Oh Well.....

Maoshan

[razakdigital]

I learned a lot going to Beijing for the second time - Maoshan. I learn that some of the Pa Kua practitioners seem to be more practical then our fellow Pa Kua practitioners in the states. Whereas in the states, some of my Pa Kua brothers are fixed on the mystical side of the art to help with the combat side. In Beijing, they don't mix both sides together. If you going to use it for fighting then its about fighting. If you use it for show then you are doing forms - thats it. Discussions of the I-Ching or other books dealing with philosophy or metaphysics aren't entertained. Now again for the record I not met all of the Beijing practitioners but after going twice I've seen a lot of things. Believe me whatever TBT is putting on the website or on this forum is very small compare with the information we've gathered even from last years trip!!!

Maoshan, we haven't talked for awhile put I wish you good luck in setting up the tournament. In NYC everybody is talking it very seriously.

[TaoBoxer]

I have information from sources whom I trust about Park.

Basically, the story as I have heard it is this:

He did train for a long time with the old man...he is a good fighter. He is not the most senior student by a long shot. A lot of what he puts forth as a "biography" is bogus. What he teaches in the US is "genuine" bagua, but it is far from complete, and the other students of Lu Shui Tien in Korea know this. Most of it is basic exersices. He does not know or teach the Southern Mantis that his teacher practiced and taught to the other high ranked students.

There was more that I was told but I have forgotten some of the details.......

[count]

Sounds like you had a great trip and saw some really good bagua. Heard you saw some bad too. I hope you will write and share more about your trip. Haven't seen you around the forums lately. Nice to hear from you. If you have some time, tell us about some of the training you got there?

Great post Maoshan. In my mind Li Ziming was one of the greatest bagua minds ever. But most people wouldn't see that connection as an honering of Yin Fu. I always thought Gong Bao Tien had some money. I wonder why he never did anything for his teacher? Oh well, I think Yin Fu had aver 20 direct students who went on to teach. You'd think at least one would step up?

[Spirit Writer]

You have a great attitude Razak! Best of luck to you.

By the way, are you going to the tournament? If so, what division and weight class will you be fighting in?

How about everybody else?

[razakdigital]

Count,

Yeah thanks for asking, I did have a nice time. I did see good Pa Kua and bad Pa Kua ...as for telling about some of the training I got there - I think I'd say that for the tournament

SpiritWriter

Thanks for the compliment about my attitude... Yes I'm fighting at the tournament but as for my weight class I'm not sure yet...I won't know until at a least a week before ....

[count]

What's up Razak, trying to take off that weight from eating all that good Chinese food on your trip? I plan on coming but most of our group just came back from the Lei Tai in Baltimore and the Annual Wu Tang tournament is in Ohio the following weekend after. Still trying to work out the logistics, and Maoshan was supposed to let us know about some places to stay but we hope to get there. At least a couple of us. How about it Maoshan? Did you find out anything about hotels?

[Justa Man]

There was more that I was told but I have forgotten some of the details.......

C'mon....remember Taoboxer, remember!

[razakdigital]

I was wondering and I meant to ask you are you going to be at the tournament and are you fighting?

[RAF]

FYI:

It is my understanding that the burial site of Dong Haichuan in Beijing was not the original site. The original site was desecrated during the Cultural Revolution and relocated (and also refinanced) in the latter years. It is my understanding (not aimed at anyone Parks, etc) that if you contrbituted a certain amount of money, you could be listed there.

Here are some photographs from the site when we visited there in 2000 and the other group visited again in 2002.

If you scroll down a bit, you can read the following:

[The Korean stele placed in March of 1991 can be seen on the far left. It documents the art of Bagua as it has spread to Korea. The first name on the stone is Lu Shui Tien, who fled China during the Sino-Japanese War. The last names are those of Park Bok Nam, his students, and his Bagua nephews. Another newer stone can be seen partly obscured by the small evergreen tree. It was placed on Oct. 14, 1994 in memory of Wang Shu Jin. The newest addition is in the foreground above.

http://www.bodymindharmony.com/tungtomb.htm

I don't think there was anything secret about putting the names on the tomb.

I take no sides in this discussion. Just wish to provide information and let others decide what they believe.

[blacktaoist]

Yo razak I hope you don't forget to bring the pictures I ask you for. Also I know where you can pick up some off the hook Ba Gua Deer hook Swords, see you in China town later on today. I'm at my job right now, so I'll call you later.


P.S. I 've make you a copy of that Ba Gua tape, I'll give it to you today, Also I have that pride fighting championship tape you let me hold, I'll bring that too. The fighting on that tape was alright, but the last fight on that tape was crazy and insane.

[count]

In one photo you have the back wall with the original steles. You mentioned 66 names, 10 more than the 56 mentioned above. I wonder if you have a translation for the list? Just curious. It's beyond me why Yin Fu would not be listed on the original 66 students on the original steles.

[blacktaoist]

Raf,

nothing wrong with giving information out, as long as it is not misleading or untrue.

As far as you taking side, I need no one to side with me to help me out. I know, what I know because I was there. Any one black , white, red, green whatever, can put a stone stele depicting their own Ba Gua Zhang lineage in dong's tomb site, as long as you have the money. And a person have to pay a lot.

There is no stone stele for Yin Fu at all in dong's tomb site, So that shows me, that its all about money and politics. As for Park, I can careless I know the truth about his so called lineage.

[blacktaoist]

Here are some photographs from the site when we visited there in 2000 and the other group visited again in 2002.

Them pictures you have of Dongs tomb must be from your 2000 vist. Because today there are more tomb stones in dong's tomb site.