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Thread: MMA / NHB / TMA and Golden Age of MA

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Kansas City, KS
    Posts
    6,515

    Addressing a few points and catching up

    1) The golden age of martial arts was before the popularifation of the gun

    I don't think this is likely. It's based on an assumption that the need for the martial arts was erased by the gun. However, fights still happen, assaults still happen without guns being involved, people beat up people quite often. Therefore, it's not the lack of fist fights that's the "problem".

    Guns knocked out swords as an effective weapon, but fists will always be the weapon you always have with you, so their pertinence was not taken away by guns. And the fact that swords, or traditional weapons, for that matter, became obsolete, does not relate to their technical advancement as an art.

    Look at western swordsmanship. It is my understanding that western sword techniques reached their most advanced level AFTER the gun took over warfare. Before that, it was heavy armor and horse, if you were on the ground in full plate, well, good luck to you. Once guns came into play, sword work became more systematized, and crossed over into an art. Yet it was not in use on the battlefield, at least by the winners.

    So there is an example of a martial art that was far more directly affected by the advent of the gun than unarmed fighting, yet peaked after the gun. So the argument that the golden age was before the gun is, IMO, not necessarily true.

    In addition, the information we get from the past is often pretty spotty. For instance, the idea that wing chun was developed to teach troops fast. OK, I can buy that. All except starting with hand forms. No general would stand for it. They will fight with swords, they will train primarily with swords. It doesn't make sense on any level. The goal wasn't to create good fist fighters, but good swordsmen, and fast. But I digress.

    2) People were tougher back then

    Like the many nobles who practiced and helped develop the martial arts. Yes, they were able to develop a certain mental toughness while their servants were cleaning out their spittoons, wiping their bottoms, and, of course, doing whatever was required.

    My point is that civilization is many centuries from a time where everyone had it hard. There has been nobles throughout recorded history. In fact, I would venture to say that as long as we have been recording our history, there have been humans with time management issues. Or is sloth a recent term?

    There are still tough people, but tough and smart can sometimes meet half way in the willful individual, if that makes any sense. The smart person sees their shortcomings and addresses them.


    In my opinion, this is the golden age of martial arts, but it is not a perfect time, just a time where the best will have better opportunities than the best of any previous age we know of.
    I would use a blue eyed, blond haired Chechnyan to ruin you- Drake on weapons

  2. #62

    Thumbs up

    "In my opinion, this is the golden age of martial arts, but it is not a perfect time, just a time where the best will have better opportunities than the best of any previous age we know of."

    That's what I was trying to say, but I clumsily attempted it with 2 pages worth of typing .
    "No Pain - Good."
    - neptunesfall

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    3,959

    Thumbs up

    d@mn u KC - what's making me agree with u so much lately?

    I was trying to highlight some of the disadvantages (imo only) that we can find nowadays. I agree that with the advances in technology you can have access to so much more... that can be a good thing

    Tigerstyle: nope, i was just saying that there is a lot of cack nowadays... nothing about opressing it If that's what ppl want, find and are happy to train, then good - at least they get many benefits For example: how many ppl on KFO have posted links to 'kung fu' only for some more knoweledgeable ppl to watch it, find out it's actually a BS kempo derived school etc.

    But there will always be those people who want more than what those schools/skills can offer, which is another reason why it is so darn hard to find good and authentic CMA teachers

    it's an interesting thread
    david
    Peace is not the product of terror or fear.
    Peace is not the silence of cemeteries.
    Peace is not the silent result of violent repression.
    Peace is the generous, tranquil contribution of all to the good of all.
    Peace is dynamism. Peace is generosity.
    It is right and it is duty.

  4. #64
    dezhen2001,
    I know you didn't mean it that way. I was just being smart mouthy
    "No Pain - Good."
    - neptunesfall

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    3,959

    Talking

    i knew that, but just wanted to clarify what i meant more as i'm rubbish at explaining what i think through typing

    Smartass (though i know plenty of ppl who are more )

    david
    Peace is not the product of terror or fear.
    Peace is not the silence of cemeteries.
    Peace is not the silent result of violent repression.
    Peace is the generous, tranquil contribution of all to the good of all.
    Peace is dynamism. Peace is generosity.
    It is right and it is duty.

  6. #66

    More talk of myth

    I'm surprised some people still believe that "people were tougher" in the olden days. Tougher in which way? People didn't live as long. People weren't as efficient, as intelligent and/or as productive. In terms of their thinking, many were primitive. As for phycial strength, the men now are indeed stronger. Wrestlers are better. Gymnasts do things which even as early as 30 years ago they couldn't do. Runners break records every day, and any boxer would tell you that the technical skills of modern boxers is much greater than that of a prize fighter 50 years ago. How can anyone still suggest that people were tougher? They weren't. They endured more. Psychologically they may have been stronger and perhaps not as pampered by modern day luxuries, but they weren't tougher.

    As for following one master for a life time, that I wouldn't call training. That's called brain washing. I have seen too many people devote 20 years of study under one master, truly believing that one man has all the martial answers. WAKE UP! He does not! The good teachers will admit that and allow you to search for your own truth. The one's obsessed with blind loyalty will tell you that "chasing too many rabbits will make you hungry." We're not talking about jumping from one training hall to the next. WE're talking about compensating for what your chosen art lacks. Right now I'm studying bjj. My instructors train in Brazil and all my sparring partners compete regularly all across the U.S. All those people have cross trained in boxing and Muay Thai to compensate for the strikes bjj doesn't give advance training in. That's not chasing rabbits. It's not abandoning the teachings of the Gracie family. It's called using your brain and doing some critical thinking. Don't be brainwashed by your masters guys. They're only human. The ones who claim that they and their are have all the answers, are the ones who have the least.
    MA fanatic

  7. #67
    I promised I'd post these when I got them. Here they are.

    1980 Kuoshu Federation Tournament Rules (paraphrased):

    Equipment: Crotch guard only
    Fight area: 12x12 square
    Scoring:
    a. Knockdown hit - 3 points
    b. Throwdown - 2 pts.
    c. Direct, accurate strike with fist or foot - 1pt. (random hits get no score)
    d. make opponent retreat from inner field - 1pt.
    e. hold chinna 5 sec. or until opponent taps out - win match
    f. 3 knockdowns - win match
    g. lose balance and fall, or fall when you hit someone - lose 1 pt.
    h. get hit or knocked out of bounds and unable to continue in 10 min. - lose match
    i. avoid engaging - 1st time lose match, 2nd time out of contest.
    j. one contestant much stronger and other can't match him - lose match

    Fouls - 1st offense lose 1 pt., 2nd offense 3 pts, 3rd - revoked qualification
    Hits to: head, throat, groin
    hits with knee or elbow (note - I saw lots of these on video that didn't get called as fouls)
    Intentional injury - civil and criminal liability

    Technical fouls: 1st time warning, 2nd lose 1 pt, 3rd lose match
    Both parties engaged for more than 3 seconds and failing to separate by 1 step.
    Hit opponent while he's on the ground
    Hit opponent who has retreated

  8. #68
    I'd like to see some of those fights. I'm curious as to why these fighters wouldn't want to fight in NHB. All they have to do is adapt to some of the ground work and they should be all set. NHB matches have much less rules (especially Vale Tudo competitions...which allow pretty much anything).
    MA fanatic

  9. #69
    Braden Guest
    You should note that Koushu rules vary a bit depending on whether it's under the National, International, or World circuits. Elbow and knee strikes are only illegal under national rules. I think you may be misreading 'no strikes WITH the head' as 'no strikes TO the head'?

  10. #70
    Originally posted by Braden
    You should note that Koushu rules vary a bit depending on whether it's under the National, International, or World circuits. Elbow and knee strikes are only illegal under national rules. I think you may be misreading 'no strikes WITH the head' as 'no strikes TO the head'?
    These rules came out of the booklet that was printed for the 1980 tourny in Hawaii. The current rules are different. I don't have the original wording in front of me to check the head strike, but it was closer in the text to throat and groin than it was to knee and elbow. Also, I've been told by several people that you couldn't do a palm strike to the top of the head or the back of the head.

    I forgot to mention that knockdown or takedown is counted if the hand or the knee touches the ground.

  11. #71
    Originally posted by Braden
    You should note that Koushu rules vary a bit depending on whether it's under the National, International, or World circuits. Elbow and knee strikes are only illegal under national rules. I think you may be misreading 'no strikes WITH the head' as 'no strikes TO the head'?
    These rules came out of the booklet that was printed for the 1980 tourny in Hawaii. I think that was World Kuoshu Federation. The current rules are different. I don't have the original wording in front of me to check the head strike, but it was closer in the text to throat and groin than it was to knee and elbow. Also, I've been told by several people that you couldn't do a palm strike to the top of the head or the back of the head.

    I forgot to mention that knockdown or takedown is counted if the hand or the knee touches the ground.

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