MMA / NHB / TMA and Golden Age of MA

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by jimmy23
as I said above, I should have clarified, i meant within the last 100 years or so

Oh okay

[Tigerstyle]

"...compared to lets say 200yrs ago it has become easier & easier to fool People whereas modern day Man is less inclined to make sacrifices and want an instant fix/solution."

Shadow Dragon,
At the same time, the advances in technology and the spread of information now allow people to become capable of much more than ever before, if they so choose. World records in speed, strength, endurance, etc. are always being surpassed and set even higher, only to be eventually surpassed/raised again.


I agree about the rampant "instant fix" mentality (lord knows, I've looked into my fair share of them. I own a Geroge Foreman Grill, too ), but think about what MA Fanatic is saying like this:

He states that this is the golden age of martial arts. Not necessarily the golden age of civilization, or even the golden age of martial artists for that matter.

Sure there's lots of junk out there to wade through, but now there's more treasure available for people to find than ever. It's up to the individual to do the research. The art doesn't seek out the person (it never did). The amount of MA-related info available to us today is truly amazing.


old jong,
Are you saying having many choices is a bad thing? I agree that there is a potential to ruin your ice cream with too many toppings, but why should everyone not have the benefit of being exposed to what is available and finding out for themselves what they're looking for?

Sort of OT: I went to Cold Stone (ice cream place, if ya didn't know ) for the first time the other day. On the wall is a selection of creations that customers came up with. So many flavors to choose from. So many variations. Most of them sounded deicious, and none of them were overloaded with "too many" toppings/flavors. I still chose my own variation (Kit Kat and walnuts on vanilla. In a chocolate dipped "waffle cone" bowl.)

A bit more OT: I can't imagine putting Gummy Bears™ on my ice cream.

[Shadow Dragon]

Tiger style.

Not sure if I agree with you.
What wins in a modern sports arena the superior equipment or the superior training method or the Athlete.

The way I see it the athlete has been reduced to a minor "safe" factor.
Let them train the same way and use the same equipment and lets see if they can duplicate the feats of 100yrs ago. Heck, even 50yrs ago.
To be honest I doubt that they will even come close.

I also agree with Old Jong that there are too many choices, Information sources.
100yrs ago a Student had only his Teacher, this days he can have Info from a variety of sources legit. valid or not.

In short waht I thing Old Jong and myself are thinking I that the focus has been lost and thus the skill will suffer.

Peace.

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Shadow Dragon
Serpent.

The Japanese rejected the Gun after it was introduced by the Spanish & Protugese.

Sorry Oda Nobunaga one of the 3 Unifiers of Japan extensivly used guns to defeat his enemies (even his own family )
One well doccumented battle was Iga no Ran (The battle of Iga) where he slaughered hundrends of Ninja families, or where he sacked the Budddhist temples of Mt. Hiei. Hideyoshi also used (the 2nd Unifier) them extensivly. The samurai would not use them but there were many ashigaru (Conscripted pesants) units that used them. Even though it is a game, Shogun Total War is a pretty accurate account of the Sengoku era of Japan. Except for the Calvery riding into battle. As Samurai rode Mongolian ponys to the battle and as they were'nt that fast, they would dismnount before battle.

[dezhen2001]

it's what i'm thinking 2 Shadow Dragon

Much better to train hard under your Sifu and Sihings, gain some understanding of the skill and then u can do whatever. Not just for a few years either, but really understand it.

Also because of the information available on MA today, there seem to be many more 'armchair MArtists' than ever before, even some who advise others how to train! How can u possibly talk about a system you have never legitimately trained in and developed real skill from?

imo of course

david

[Tigerstyle]

"The way I see it the athlete has been reduced to a minor "safe" factor. Let them train the same way and use the same equipment and lets see if they can duplicate the feats of 100yrs ago. Heck, even 50yrs ago. To be honest I doubt that they will even come close."

IMO, using the exact same methods would mean they are capable of performing the exact same feats as people from 50-100 years ago. It's not like people were created differently then.

Using today's knowledge of training methods, nutrition, human physiology, and having access to only the equipment from "back in the day", I feel today's athletes could still very easily duplicate (and surpass) feats/records set 50-100 years ago.

It's like (KFO member) Asia says, "Application of knowledge is power."

Do you think people from the past, if given access to the equipment/information we have today, would not improve in any way?


"I also agree with Old Jong that there are too many choices, Information sources. 100yrs ago a Student had only his Teacher, this days he can have Info from a variety of sources legit. valid or not."

I personally don't see it as "too many choices". I see the amount and freedom of choice we are exposed to, and I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Besides, who's to say the one teacher you have access to is legit or valid? He might be the best boxer in the village, but could be a total novice compared to the "outside world". That's probably fine if you never leave your village, but many of us don't live so isolated anymore.

[Shadow Dragon]

If they would get the same results, which I doubt.
Than the a modern day athlete is no better than the athlete 100yrs ago.
The superior method, training & equipment makes the different. NOT the Athlete.

But I rather think that Humans 100yrs ago were more capapble of pushing themselves further and harder than their modern day equivalent.
And thus they would excel over a modern day man competing against them using only the old methods, ways and equipment.

Most modern day pro-Athletes won't even get of their Butts unless you tangle a HUGE paycheck in front of their noses.

Honestly would love to see some of the modern Boxers go up against a fisticuff fighter from way back than.
I know where to palce my money.

Peace.

[dezhen2001]

I personally don't see it as "too many choices". I see the amount and freedom of choice we are exposed to, and I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Yes we have a lot of choice. Everyone alsways has a choice though. Too many choices often means that people would settle for what was conveniant, and superficial. As in the case of many McKwoons today. An all round great package, friendship, physical training etc. but money grabbing and the skill is generally cack.

Besides, who's to say the one teacher you have access to is legit or valid? He might be the best boxer in the village, but could be a total novice compared to the "outside world". That's probably fine if you never leave your village, but many of us don't live so isolated anymore.

LOL, trying to hark back to the 'good old days'? No one can really know what it was like back then as none of us were there... Anyways, i would say it's better to train in SOMETHING than to sit in an armchair watching videos and reading books while thinking you understand and deveop real skill...

just my thoughts of course

Also to kinda tag on to what SD just said: people who lived even a hundred years ago or more imo lived in harsher conditions and harder times. For example, the likes of Survival training done by the armed forces - before, EVERYONE used to live like that, now only the elite can generally hack it.

Of course we have many technological advances nowadays to make things 'easier' and more 'conveniant'. Modernisation huh?

david

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by Tigerstyle
Besides, who's to say the one teacher you have access to is legit or valid? He might be the best boxer in the village, but could be a total novice compared to the "outside world". That's probably fine if you never leave your village, but many of us don't live so isolated anymore.

Aaah, little one I can assure you that my current Teacher is legit, as for him being the best Boxer ....
Besides I got access to quiet a few good and reputed Instructors.
Find me another boxer that practices the same style and is regarded at the same level than we can compare notes.

He might not be the best Boxer out there, but he suits my current MA development stage at the moment and I got access to him. :P
You see it is not important if you learn the best style from the best Boxer, but rather that your teacher & style suit YOU.

Sifu X might be the best, but if I haven't got access to him he might as well not exist.

The best Teacher cannot turn lead into Gold, but he can shape a rough dirty gold nugget into something fantastic and marvelous.

It takes the right Teacher/Student combo to creat a new Master.
Peace.

[Mr Punch]

I don't think that people have become any easier to fool in the last two hundred years. People believed anything before the information age's roots with the mass-production of newspapers... flat earth, mermaids, anthropaphagi, people rising from the dead, people receiving instructions from some being in the sky, nuclear derived power being safe... oh wait... DOH !!!

Seriously though... There are more stupid people in the world today simply because there are more people in the world today. I think most of them are much harder to fool nowadays, cos the info is only a question to the right person away, a click away, a TV programme away... and sure the info may be wrong, but it still gets people suspicious of what they're told.

And I agree with MAFanatic... ... the access to good info about, and the opportunity to practise, and the learning and practise to critically analyse what you are practising are currently at their maximum.

But I rather think that Humans 100yrs ago were more capapble of pushing themselves further and harder than their modern day equivalent.

Which humans, Shadow?! In which situations? As DZ says, a lot of them had to face hardship in every day life... but they weren't training for it, they were living it, and it was always the elite or the professionals (in some MA cases, the army) who had the luxury of training.

Sure the average person may have had to have pushed themselves harder to get out of bed, but modern athletes are faster, stronger and better than those 100 years ago due to the science in training available.

[Shadow Dragon]

Mat & others.

A Citydweller 100yrs ago was still a Citydweller.
An accountant 100yrs ago still pushed a Desk like one does today.
A modern day Farmer is still a Farmer.

My point being is that their outlook on life and what can be achieved were different.

Than there was a sense of lets do what no one else has done, not a thinking of lets be better than the next Guy.

Look at how the Olympics alone have changed since they were re-started.
Back than the Competitors were not professionals, but simply people that were good at their given sport.

I can't see many modern man venture to the Amazonas and other areas to finish the explorations that were done 100yrs ago.
Very few do so indeed, even so we could do it now better faster and more accurate than back than.

Why because it means leaving their comfort zone.

It is not the human Body that has changed (actually it did slightly), but the attitude and mindset.

Peace.

[Tigerstyle]

Shadow Dragon and dezhen2001,
I think we are arguing different points .

What I am saying (typing, rather) is that MA Fanatic feels that the information about martial arts in general and access to specific martial arts has grown more than ever before. We (as in the human race) are in a time where knowledge and information can be shared globally at a speed undreamed of 100+ years ago.

I think the point you are making (please correct me if I am wrong) is that people are different today than they were in the past, at least in attitude and mindset. This point doesn't have much bearing on MA Fan's original point, other than there may be more lazy people today than in the past (another debate).

I do agree that there is much fraud/misinformation today (in MA and otherwise). I also agree that there are many very lazy people around today (in MA and otherwise). I honestly cannot make many comparisons about these people and the people of the past, because I wasn't there (and I'm too lazy to research and develop a time machine ).

Would you agree that we have access to more martial arts today than people form 100+ years ago? If not, why?



"Aaah, little one I can assure you that my current Teacher is legit, as for him being the best Boxer ....
Besides I got access to quiet a few good and reputed Instructors.
Find me another boxer that practices the same style and is regarded at the same level than we can compare notes.

He might not be the best Boxer out there, but he suits my current MA development stage at the moment and I got access to him. :P
You see it is not important if you learn the best style from the best Boxer, but rather that your teacher & style suit YOU."

BTW Shadow, I did not mean to apply my earlier statement to you or your teacher . It was an example of what people may have had access to, MA-wise, in the past.

However IMHO, your response does support the point of the thread in a way. You say you have access to "quite a few good and reputed instructors". Would I be correct to assume they didn't all happen to have grown up in the same local area as you?

I agree with you when you state the importance of finding a style that suits you personally. I feel that it is more possible today than it ever was in the past to find the style that best suits you.

Yes, more styles out there means more trash, but there is always fraud/misinformation. There will always be fraud/misinformation. It is not a new invention.

[Tigerstyle]

"Yes we have a lot of choice. Everyone alsways has a choice though. Too many choices often means that people would settle for what was conveniant, and superficial. As in the case of many McKwoons today. An all round great package, friendship, physical training etc. but money grabbing and the skill is generally cack."

What you're saying, in a sense, is that since many people are too lazy (to research) and will likely will make the wrong choice, we should eliminate the choices for everyone. That way no one has to make a wrong choice and everyone will be happy.

Sounds... kinda, oppressive . If MA wasn't so widespread, many of us would not be on these KFM forums disscussing kung fu.

[Merryprankster]

Ah yes... another one of those "Back then, people were tougher, the world was better, the sun was shinier, whites were whiter, colors were brighter and giants bestrode the earth."

Go on then. Pull the other one.

[guohuen]

Seems to me that weight lifting records, running speed records ect. get broken all the time. Maybe the average person was in better shape because they had to be in order to survive, but the average lifespan of people 100-200 years ago doesn't support this. I think as the population grows, what you will see is an increase in both directions. Fit and unfit.