MMA / NHB / TMA and Golden Age of MA

[Serpent]

I'm not suggesting that there isn't a place for MA's since the invention of the gun. There's always going to be a valid place for it in any society at any time.

I'm just saying that the only real "golden age" was before the gun came along..... Perhaps that golden age extended until the gun became readily available to the general public?

[Shadow Dragon]

Serpent.

Re-read my Post. I asked you to check since when the Chinese & Japanese used Guns.

The Japanese rejected the Gun after it was introduced by the Spanish & Protugese.
They already had mortars and mines before the round-eyes came along.

At that time the Chinese had Guns already for CENTURIES.
They also had repeating crossbows, rocket launchers, landmines and various types of rockets batteries.
Flame throwers that could shoot a contious strema of fire.
"Flying Dragon Rockets" with a range of nearly 2km to attack other Ships.

Chinese started using Black Powder offensively around 900~1000AD.

Peace.

[jimmy23]

you are correct shadow, but they didnt develop the technology to as high a level as the Western countries did.

[Shadow Dragon]

Jimmy23.

True, many of the chinese invention were never really used for the same purpose that the Westerners used them for or developed to such a high degree.

Many like Guns were later re-imported into China.

But I guess their old Guns/weapons were still lethal enough to be used and a threat in a confrontation.

Peace.

[jimmy23]

I would beinterested in a study that examines that question, why the western coutries developed firearm technology faster than the Chinese, who had the stuff first. Interesting.

[Shadow Dragon]

Jimmy23.

From the Report last night, it was the Chinese that had it first and got to the west via the Arabs.

The western People perfected the imported technology.
But we are still talking Muskets here, that had to be loaded, charged and fired via a "stand". But one shot every 2~3 minutes.
Even 130yrs ago accuracy was still a common problem.

Fully handheld rifles and pistols only came much later.
But than the Chinese had Cannons way before the west.

Also in China all development was part and owned by the Emperor and thus not available to the public. Compare this to the Church in the west that a much wider spread of their knowledge.

Peace.

[Serpent]

So you're backing up my point really. Miss with the first shot and I've got 2-3 minutes to run up and beat you senseless with my kung fu.

Whereas nowadays any punk can have fifteen instant, accurate shots tucked into his baggy jeans.

All I was saying was that the golden age of martial arts was before firearms became accurate and numerous.

[jimmy23]

my understanding of the western innovations is that the firearm really beacme prominant around the 1700s. By the mid 1800s its supremecy was unsurpassed for large scale endeavours, due to the ability of large groups to form bayonet walls to protect the guys reloading. Ive been wrong before , though

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by Serpent
All I was saying was that the golden age of martial arts was before firearms became accurate and numerous.

That clarifies it, since you mean MODERN Firearms, aka late 19th Century onwards.

Peace.

[MA fanatic]

Straightblast: No one is denying that fights between schools have occured outside the United States. If you reread my post, you'll that i indeed have my head out of the box and support the fact that fights have occured between martial arts schools and instructors. I was the one who said that masters in the olden days tested their skills. I actually saw some photographs of various challenge matches from China, Japan, Indonesia, Russian, and Okinawa. The individual I was responding to suggested there were sanctioned events with rules. I asked him "what the rules were" and who sanctioned these tournaments. That's it. No one is argueing with you on the fact whether or not all fights were documented.

As for martial arts historians, most are in fact quite accurate. Many have traveled all across the globe studying ancient fighting arts, traditions, myths, etc. etc. Not one had yet denied the fact that fights, even duels to the death ever existed. As a matter of fact, I keep seeing and hearing martial arts historians suggest that they did.

I disagree with the statements that the Golden Age of Martial Arts happened just prior to the envention of the gun. The reason I chose this particular period, is because of the wealth of knowledge available to those desiring to train in martial arts. Keep in mind, we even have the choice now of which art to train in that best fits our needs, and have the opportunities to travel the world should we decide to persue those arts in their native land. The fact that there are crooks who charge too much, or who inflated their rank has nothing to do with it. I'm sure those have always existed.

Keep in mind, what we have available to us now, is what some of the greatest masters always dreamed of having. You guys think that if Yip Man lived today he wouldn't be interested in the popularity and progression of grappling into the martial arts scene? If you think "out of the box" you will realize that he, among many others, would be facinated by that phenomenon. He may even want to role on the mat.
MA fanatic

[Shadow Dragon]

Ma Fanatic.

I basically agree with you.

Except that compared to lets say 200yrs ago it has become easier & easier to fool People whereas modern day Man is less inclined to make sacrifices and want an instant fix/solution.

Peace.

[MA fanatic]

Good point. That's exactly true.
MA fanatic

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by jimmy23
Outside of Brazil, though, there is no record of true MMA anywhere, period. Not that allowed unrestricted clench work and ground work. Ive seen foootage of some of the rooftop matches in Hong Kong, without exception when one guy wnet down the other let him getback up.

You need to get away from believing in things that youve never seen , nor has anyone else, like these mythical tournaments where people died because of the skills of the masters. As has been said, these were nowhere near true NHB.

What about roman gladiatorial events thats an example of documented any thing goes fighting.

[jimmy23]

as I said above, I should have clarified, i meant within the last 100 years or so

[PLCrane]

Originally posted by jimmy23
if these tournaments are the ones Im thinking of (I belive that Su Dong Chen one one them at 17 years old) They allowed only three or four seconds of work in the clinch, no ground worrk, and throws from standing.


That sounds consistent with what I saw, and it's similar to the current rules. Yes, elbows and knees were allowed. No external padding. I don't know if mouth guards or cups were used.

I sent questions out to people who were there, and I'm waiting to hear any answers. I'm under the impression that common injuries were concussions, contusions, fractures and dislocations. I hadn't heard that anyone died.

Here are links to current rules for Kuoshu
http://www.tienshanpai.org/usckf/eve...rn-rules.shtml
http://home.mweb.co.za/ku/kuoshu/rules.pdf

and for comparison, current UFC rules:
Sorry, I can't seem to get there today.