Couple of Questions

[GGL]

Do you think anyone under the age of 18 should hold a black belt or sash in anything? Or does it just add ego?

And why is the traditional color for Martial Arts black.. is this just a Westerner thing? or is just to add a std in class or competition so not one person stands out

These are just some thoughts as I try to figure out flash

Oh does anyone out in KungFu land know flash.. any good tutorial websites?

Greg

[dezhen2001]

about flash - sorry i can't help much. I usually use the books by 'friends of ED' and also their website for help with things. http://www.friendsofed.com Also if urlooking for free downloads and things then www.flashkit.com is also pretty good. They have loads of sounds, movies, pics, flash files etc. u can download and break apart to see how they work Also i sometimes go on the macromedia.com website and the discussion forums there. Theres usually quite a lot of skilled ppl there...

as for the MA related question: a black belt means someone who should have a good foundation so now can start learning the skill (also someone who shouldn't break). So if they have that, then it's ok. having a BB doesn't mean u can teach, just that you have walked a certain distance along the path.

hope that's of some use,
david

[Leto]

It depends on what colors a particular system uses...but most systems that have belt or sash colors begin with white, and end with black. Green and brown are usually in between somewhere. I believe the progression from white to black is symbolic of the time put into hard training. When you begin your sash is clean and white. It never gets washed, so as you train it eventually will become grass stained, sweaty, dirty, and after many years of training will be black, showing the time and effort (kung fu) you have put into martial arts.

As for the age of a black belt...this depends on the criteria of each style and school. There is no universal criteria for black belts, or sashes, many traditional styles don't even use colored sashes.

" a black belt means someone who should have a good foundation so now can start learning the skill (also someone who shouldn't break). So if they have that, then it's ok. having a BB doesn't mean u can teach, just that you have walked a certain distance along the path. "

I agree with David, and each style and school has different criteria for 'having a good foundation'. In some styles, you might have to be able to do 100 pushups, and break a brick with your fist, in another style you might have to do the whole I Chin Ching properly, in yet another you might have to be able to execute techniques in sparring correctly...

Would a 12 year old be able to do 100 pushups and break a brick? maybe, maybe not. If he can, then he deserves to be a black belt in that style, since he has demonstrated the strength and conditioning. Can a 16 year old be as good as an 18 year old, or a 20 year old at performing forms? Of course. I believe promotion should be criteria driven. If some criteria are too dangerous for children below a certain age (in general)...then it would be the instructor's call whether to make the age a criteria as well.

[Dark Knight]

Most systems I have seen put a limit of 16 for first degree then its not until past 18 before you start seeing more promotions.

TKD is always the exceptions. you always see in the local paper about the 7 year old TKD black belt.

If your dad is the founder of the system you can make it to 5th degree by the time your 18.

Go to www.usjujitsu.net or www.usmaf.org and you can see the mnimum ages for promotions. they use the international standards.

And why is the traditional color for Martial Arts black.. is this just a Westerner thing? or is just to add a std in class or competition so not one person stands out

Kano used black in the Kodakan in Japan. He convinced Funakoshi to use the color belt system.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by GGL
Do you think anyone under the age of 18 should hold a black belt or sash in anything? Or does it just add ego?

If they can hang with the other black belts, why not? Of course my opinion means $hit here as I have no idea what my own rank is, LOL

[Felipe Bido]

I don't know what my rank is, either..


We must suck

[Shadow Dragon]

Hi.

Kano created the Belt System:
Initally it consisted of 3 Belts.

1.) White Belt, anybody below Dan grade, no Kyu grades back than.
2.) Black belt, Dan Grade 1~4(advanced Student)
3.) Red & white Belt. Dan Grade 5~ onwards

He copied it from the japanese swimmign system where advancde swimmers used a black belt around thier waist.
White was used as the Keikogi was white and thus did not standout/exist.

It is my belief that the Kyu & Color belts did not come into effect until after WW II when the US Service men demanded more ranks due to their short stay in japan.

BTW, I agree that BB or equivalent should be restricted to age 18 or older.

Peace.

[TaoBoy]

David said it best - "a black belt means someone who should have a good foundation so now can start learning the skill".

The ego involved is normally associated with the entire school - if you are told you will be invincible when you get your black sash, you may just believe it. If you are taught that it is just another step along the path - albeit a big one - then your head may not expand too greatly.

Grades do have a place in modern MA as a benchmark - but the sashes/belts are really only good for holding up your pants.

As for the junior age - some schools let juniors grade to black but when they join the adult classes they start at a corresponding adult level (maybe 2/3 the way to black).

[dezhen2001]

I think because each system and even each school has some differences as well as similarities, then there can be no 'blanket' grade that everyone recognises as a level of skill... I think the BB or black sash tries to do that, but as standards are all different, it doesn't work...

i mean when i did shotokan and was only a green belt (5th kyu) i used to quite often spar with and beat 1st kyu and even 1st dan BB from other schools... and i couldn't even do anything! (reverse punch and front kick)

Many schools have a junior and adult syllabus, which i think can work if organised properly. I know in one of my old Shorinji Kempo classes if you became a junior BB you had to go back to Blue when u became an adult (over 16), as the syllabus was slightly different (due to the differences in growth, joints etc.)

But personally i think grades are all relative, so for me there is no need. I know who my Sifu is, and who is senior or junior to me. That doesn't mean skill, but time training. That's all i need to know i have to get on with things As for if i visit another school or play with others who trian elsewhere - no need for grade, u can be honest and should be able to tell when u touch hands...

SD: didn't know the details of the grade system, thanks for the info

david

[SevenStar]

You asked why the color black is used to represent a master's rank in most arts - here's what I read several years ago:

all students wore a white belt. over time, they would sweat, and the sweat made the belt yellowish. (Note: they never washed their belts.) as the training got harder, they were introduced to some type of grappling, or hit the ground in some manner - getting swept, knocked down, etc. and grass stains added a greenish tint. Training got more rigorous and the belt turned brown from a mixture of sweat, dirt and blood. eventually, the belts turned black.

Dunno how much truth it holds, that's just what I read.

As far as young black belts go, I don't think one should be given at a young age - I would not give one to anyone under 16 or 17, and they would have to be exceptional at that age. The reason being is that someone so young will not be able to use their skill properly, as far as power goes. a 9 year old black belt can't do squat to an adult with his hardest kick, unless it's in the knee or the nads, and you don't need a black belt to be able to do that.

[old jong]

These colored belts were created by a judo teacher called Kawashi who was teaching early judo in france after the war. It was a motivation trick to give reasonable goals to students who had problems with the long waits between the white belt and brown and the even longer times between brown and black (third kiu and shodan.)

[dezhen2001]

but a junior BB can be measured on a different set of goals and requirements than an adult BB, so it makes no difference imo.

if they serve their purpose, great. If the ranking system is abused then it sux. Doesn't matter if it's belts, sashes or even things like Sifu, Sihing etc.

Felipe: i already know my skill sux, that's why i prob. don't have a grade Maybe we should use the symbol of the Tai (Supreme/Great) Durian as a badge to show our level of skill


david

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by GGL
Do you think anyone under the age of 18 should hold a black belt or sash in anything? Or does it just add ego?

No. Dunno about the ego, but I've never met anyone under 18 whose ass I couldn't kick, and I'm not hard!!! Physically, they just don't have it in them. I think I'm right in saying, a man's bones only finish fusing by the time they are 19-21, and there's no way you can go all out with them.

In terms of technical skill, fine;
in terms of flexibility, fine, but watch those joints for early cases of arthritis;
in terms of speed, maybe;
in terms of emotional maturity, rarely (even given that shodan means first step, how many kids actually digest that? In fact how many adults really digest that!!??);
in terms of power: body connection, rootedness, etc, only in exceptional cases.

BTW the dan system over here goes much further back than the advent of modern martial arts systems. You can get dan in calligraphy (martially equivalent to most aikido!! ), flower arranging (=shotokan? ) and tea ceremony (= BJJ... maan that tea ceremony's the toughest!). Dunno when they first started using it in MA... kendo in the late eighteenth...?... Shadow...?

[Shadow Dragon]

Mat.

Here is what I was told by the Budo Guys:

1.) Kano invented the Belt ranking system & keikogi.
At that time(1890~1897) Kara-Te and Aikido were not yet
in existence in japan as MA.
Kano never set an upper limit for Dan grades, but people over 10th Dan were supposed to wear a white belt of double width. i.e. return to the roots, finish the circle.

2.) Old JMA each had their own "Licence" system and was not standardized.

Licences were as follows:
2.1.) Instructors(Menkyo):
Can instruct up to a certain level below his current knowledge.

2.2) Full Transmission(Menkyo Kaiden):
Can teach the Full sytem and is allowed to either open a school teaching that system or make changes to the system to form a new one.
2.3.) Linage Holder (Soke):
The transferal of the densho Scrolls meant that a new linage holder had been recognised.

Training Gear was a Dogi and Hakama pants, (i.e. everyday clothing).Place was usually a Courtyard or a training hall.

Apart from that you were either a student or a Teacher, some awards/recognition were given for valuable contribution to the Art/style,etc.

Don't think that CMA used that much of a different system.

Peace.

[Mr Punch]

Cheers!