Can PM Still Evolve...

[mantisben]

or are the Luo Guangyu (7*PM), Hao Henglu (Plum Blossom PM), Song Zide (Grand Ultimate PM), and Ding Zichengs' (6 Harmonies PM) of the PM Kung Fu world the last of the great innovators of PM Kung Fu?

[grifter721]

ofcourse there can all you need are people that respect the style and the masters of old enough to change the style. You cant have people clinging to the old regiment, nothing can grow if you stay the same. Some people focus too much and being their "master, Sifu" instead of focusing on becoming better than ther teacher.

[mantisben]

I agree with you. Still, I can't help but think that if someone tried to start a new branch of PM, possibly mixing PM with another effective method of combat that there wouldn't be an uproar in the PM community.

I wonder if the people that started their own branches of PM suffered such persecution. Possibly they did, but kicked soo much ass that the Martial Arts community was forced to acknowledge the innovation, and respect the Founder, and the new style and/or system.

Comments?

[Hau Tien]

That's one of the major things that is missing these days... the kicking ass.

Now, before I get labelled as someone who likes to fight, I simply mean that in history, if you wanted to prove your style was the best, you challenged and fought others who were considered "the best". These days, there are laws to prevent such things.

*shrug*

As for starting a new branch of Mantis... who knows? Myself, I don't plan on becoming a carbon copy of my Sifu, but I don't plan on creating my own branch, either. I hope to bring my own "flavor" to the 7* that I practice. I think that is what all great martial artists do.

Just my opinion... and I'm half watching TV right now, so forgive me if it makes no sense... hehe

[Lisa]

I definitely think it should evolve. The problem with that is that many people will tend to look at it as "watered down" or "made-up." I think this may be why someone these days wouldn't want to try to change it. If it's practical and follows the basic principles of PM kung fu, it's good PM kung fu. If someone has something useful to add to the style, it should be welcomed.

Lisa

[BeiTangLang]

I can see why LGY & WHF made the hanges they did & kept what was needed the same. No, I do not see the ability for much change in this era as there are not many people actually using the system. Inovations, creations, revisions are made by people then what they have will no longer keep them alive & needs to be changed. I do not see such a serious need so I will probrably just try to preserve what I have learned as best I can for my future students who may actually need the system as a way to stay alive & may change the system then to met _their_ needs.
Not much can change anyway in the long run if you think about it.
In short, I believe fighting style changes/inovations are products of their environments plain & simple.

[Art D]

It is al ready changing evry time someone makes it thier personal exprition. As traditionalists we hold on to the old ways the tradtions, as innovators we move on to our own way. In the chinese martial arts comunity moving on now is called basterdizing making stuff up, chop suey . but in 50 to 100 years it will be tradition. I can't make any sence of this thinking.

[GiantMantis]

If it is not broke then why try and fix it

[Lisa]

"If it is not broke then why try and fix it"

It's not about it being "broke." I think it just has more to do with making the style more complete. If my instructor wanted to teach me something to better deal with groundfighting for example, I would not be opposed to learning it, even if it was not traditionally a part of the PM system.

"In the chinese martial arts comunity moving on now is called basterdizing making stuff up, chop suey . but in 50 to 100 years it will be tradition. I can't make any sence of this thinking."

Yeah, I see what you're saying. The way I look at it, all kung fu was made up at some point. I think people have a hard time trusting anything that was added to any system recently because you get people like GM Simon who take something that isn't kung fu, call it kung fu, then make a bunch of money off people who don't know any better.

Lisa

[Art D]

If it is not broke then why try and fix it Was it ever broke when it evolved? It is not a object it is an art. The tao is change whether we like it or not. To stay the same is agenst nature. And to the point of we don't need to adapt becuse where not a fighting culture , come on look at crime , home invasions , rape, road rage
. Ever think about uo , luo sao to a head grab out your car window then stomp on the gas. Is this not our eviorment today

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Art D
Ever think about uo , luo sao to a head grab out your car window then stomp on the gas.

This is what I call Practical Creativity!!

Thanks for the application Art!

[mantis108]

People go into martial arts for all kinds of reasons. The demography is much more diverse than even just a hundred years ago. Of all those people who take up MA, their intentions and their expectations are vastly different not to mention their attributes are no way near the same. So their attainments are all different. Most would drop out with 2-3 years. Those who stayed are really of our concern here. A small number of these "survivers" will push themselves and their original systems to the limit. These people (may be 5 % of the survivers) are usually driven by 2 dynamics - dream and passion. Most of the time there are a mixture of the both dream and passion in an unevent percentage mix (60-40). What happen to the 95% of the survivers? Most of the time they vote the other 5% out Or they vote themself out of the game unknowingly. So we don't worry about them for now. The 3% of the 5 % are those who become lineage holders or keepers of the traditions (passionate in maintaining the sand castle ) or creator of "improved" system (passionate in polishing the mirror). The final 2% are those who dare to dream hard (of course with a lot of passion to excel). These people invent and create. They travel the undiscovered countries to fulfill the true meaning of being human.

Praying Mantis is like the fountain for all. How much and how refreshing is of your mind.

Mantis108

[Mantis9]

Praying Mantis tradition is like the box. You know, one of those boxes that everyone is attempting to "think outside of." Wong Long built the PM box; each succeeding generation learned inside the box; then followed up with an innovation (aka "thinking outside the box.")

I'm still finding the borders of that box, simply because of my stage in development, compounded by the depth of talented PM masters that have already provided innovation upon innovation. The box has been growing for many generations, so its a timely search.

Perhaps, I won't be one of the small percentage of practitioners that revolutionize PM, but I confident there will be those that will.

Then again, Praying Mantis is an inspirational style, maybe I will add an innovation of my own.

Hah hah haaa! I such a comedian.

[mantisben]

I'll try different PM techniques to see if there is an application different from the obvious. I keep these techniques to myself. I'll try it out on one of my elder classmates (with their permission of course) just to see if it would work or not. Sometimes it works great, sometimes they need to revive me with smelling salt.

I believe ALL PM techniques are effective for combat, but I don't believe that ALL PM techniques are TAUGHT to be effective in combat. Either because the "Masters" don't want it to be known for their own reasons, or because a "Master" DOESN'T know how to apply it politically and gained his title "Master" because he is respected "politically" (nothing wrong with that, by the way).

Call me impatient, but I don't want to wait until I'm 64 years old to discover the REAL way to apply a PM throwing technique or a PM locking technique.

Although I may not sound like one, I consider myself a traditionalist, and according to PM tradition, PM creators "screened" 18 different styles, absorbed the combat techniques that they felt were effective for combat, and flushed the rest... They didn't absorb 18 different styles. They absorbed the "BEST" of the 18 different styles.

I'll bet that there were some masters that said "don't get rid of this technique. It is very useful. It has been in the <one of the18 styles> style since the beginning. And either Wang Lang, or whoever had authority to say "yes, we'll absorb it" or "no, it can stay in <one of the 18 styles>, thank you", accepted it or rejected it. I am absolutely sure some of the masters said "you don't think this is practical? Let me try it out to see if it is effective or not.". Some of them proved it was effective, some of them didn't prove it was effective.

I'd like to note that I could prove none of this historically. But knowing what little I know about the times in China, if someone called themselves "Masters" they soon had to prove it. Often they had to prove it on a regular basis. Not at all like to day, where people can refer to themselves as a "Master" of Kung-Fu and not prove it.

Absorb what is useful (Said Bruce Lee). All PM techniques are useful, but so is Jiu-Jitsu, Aikido, Wing-Chun, Judo, Tong Bei, Tiger Claw, Choy Lay Fut, and even Tae Kwon Do (if you kick like He IL Cho). And any other style I left out.

I have alot more to say about the evolution of PM but this post is waaay to long.

Lots of Respect to One And All!!!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

"PM creators "screened" 18 different styles, absorbed the combat techniques that they felt were effective for combat, and flushed the rest... They didn't absorb 18 different styles. They absorbed the "BEST" of the 18 different styles"

There is no universal 'best' fighting techniques. If there were there would only be one fighting system today. What I consider 'the best' fighting techniques of one style might not be what you consider 'the best'. Each creator took what he liked and what worked for himself and formed a martial arts style. It's been done time after time and will continue to be done today and in the future. As more material is added (from 'the best' of others) to an existing art it will eventually grow to the point where someone extracts 'the best' and forms a new one. Where does it end?