Can PM Still Evolve...

[Art D]

Hua Lin excelant points . the on going R&D of a MAist lead all to explore other things to ? what they are doing and to evole as new insight is gained. one of the areas that I find myself going is the greater intergration of internal training into the mix that I teach , than what was presented to me. As wellas a more practical hands on useage , althoe that may just have been WL's evolution to it's presant day forms oriented training, I rember that it was not always that way. This not to say that IMO it has always beem very froms oriented, may be to much so IMO.

[BeiTangLang]

Yes,..to the forms point I must agree with you. Its hard for me to imagine the quantity of form has doubled,tripled, quadroupled & even more in just 2-3 generations. Hard for me to imagine that much innovation in so short of a time. But as artd says,..its all IMHO.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
[B...Where does it end? [/B]

Thank-you for your post Hua Lin Laoshi. I believe it never ends.

Here is a question for all -- what is change ? That is to say we all agree that to survive MA systems must change, evolve, adapt.

In your opinion then, what constitutes change ?

thx in advance,
UM.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by mantisben
Although I may not sound like one, I consider myself a traditionalist, and according to PM tradition, PM creators "screened" 18 different styles, absorbed the combat techniques that they felt were effective for combat, and flushed the rest... They didn't absorb 18 different styles. They absorbed the "BEST" of the 18 different styles.

First, in response to this, there have been many many discussions on the 18 Styles poem and the story about the style's origins. As I understand it and I am certainly not an authority, the poem suggests to me that there were certain techniques attributed to specific people. For example, the ngau, lou, choi of Lau Hing; the kwan lau goon yee of Tahm Fong... So Wong Long took these techniques and incorporated them into the Praying Mantis system he was developing, finding them useful and complementary with his theories and concepts. The Poem also says that the style is predominantly made up of Tai Jo Cheung Kuen and Tong Bei Cheung Kuen.

So while the latter two certainly may have been "screened" or filtered for techniques that would make up the foundation for the PM style, I think the other styles that make up the System are in some way an exaggeration. Wong Long took the ngau, lau, choi technique of Lau Hing. That becomes one style's addition to the Praying Mantis System. It is not stated that there is anything else from Lau Hing in the System so for now, we assume that this is all. I think the history and the poem gives credit for the techniques to others in a way of memorializing or honoring them.

On the discussion of PM evolving, I think this is a very tricky and subjective topic because what one person considers an improvement another might call incorrect. I certainly believe there can be variations in flavor or fighting style. This is just personal preference and in that regard, those differences are minor. I also believe that variations in applications of techniques is indeed necessary for adaptability to different situations. I am a traditionalist though and I strongly believe that while variations are fine, they should not stray too far from the origin. I have seen some vastly differing interpretations of techniques that to me, frankly just tell me that the person does not understand the original intent of that technique. There are times when you can force a round peg into a square hole but it is not the most efficient use of either nor is it very logical to do so.

I think that PM can evolve in other ways. How an instructor teaches in today's society can not be the same way it was taught even a few generations ago. It is simply not the same demographics or culture anymore. Today's sifu can not teach and discipline students like they did in HK or China 100 or even 50 years ago. Here is where I have seen how the style has evolved. I have watched and experienced how my Sifu's teaching method has changed, modified, evolved over the years. This style is not easily taught or learnt. It requires so much coordination of the entire body that not everyone can easily understand or perform the movements. But my Sifu has made it his goal, to teach everyone he accepts into the school. To find ways to break down the movements so that it is easier to learn. To explain it such that people can understand. This is not the traditional way of teaching but it retains the authenticity and integrity of the style. At the same time, allows more people to learn and understand it as well.

As for adding to the style, I think each generation, each instructor is bound to add something. Be it a technique borrowed from another system or a form borrowed from another style. It is not wrong or incorrect so long as everything is kept honest about what is what. I am strongly against adding something from another style and then claiming that it is traditional or authentic to the PM system. This I believe is dishonest and disrespectful. Our school teaches non-PM forms such as Gung Lik Kuen. Forms from the Jing Mo Association. We do not claim them as geunine PM forms. When they are taught, it is explained where these froms came from and why we choose to teach them. This I believe is the correct way to add things to your curriculum.

YM

[flem]

artd and lisa combined make the most sense. it is changing it has to be- but as was mentioned by someone else? thers no more ass kicking. so if our adaptations are to please/wow crowds then it is a bad thing and if it changes only on a theoretical untested basis it is also bad. we need to come as close as practical to real tests of techs before any changes are made

[MightyB]

Don't worry so much about changing the system and becomming some kind've great innovator. It takes long enough to learn as it is. But, you can change it for yourself.

You say there's no more ass kicking. Way wrong. San Shou, Shidokan, MMA events. I know what you all will say. "Those events have rules" you'll cry. Believe me, if you start fighting in San Shou, you'll be happy and glad that there are rules. I don't even want to think about what a free for all MMA/NHB event feels like.

I can tell you what happened to my interpretation of 7* after my first San Shou fight. Maybe 75% of the hand techniques work, but I was maybe able to execute 15% of them effectively (and I'm being generous). Mantis throwing techniques-- way lacking for effective free fighting. You have to study Judo or Shuai Jou to get more usefull throws. Mantis kicking isn't too bad, but you have to build leg endurance and the Thai round kick (and shins). Western boxing needs to be incorporated into the system-- need to get the head moving, bob and weave, basic defensive shell, and offensive combination mentality. The monkey footwork of 7* is right on. If you practice it (7* footwork) hard and get yourself really nimble, it works great.

The above is some of my interpretation of what works and doesn't work in mantis and what modifications need to be made to make it better. Am I going to change to system? Heck no. Do any of you agree with my interpretations? Again, Heck no. But that doesn't matter because I don't want to change the system, I just want to make it better for me. I'm greedy that way.

You guys can do your own fighting and make it better for yourselves.

[Art D]

San shao is SPORT ! Not combat . yes a tough sport but a sport.

[Art D]

I just read this again . What is this precived lack of ofensive combinations?

[MightyB]

Remember that these are just my opinions for myself. I'm not trying to change the system or say that PM is lacking anything because it's not.

But, for me, I felt too defensive in free fighting/San Shou. What I mean by "offensive combination strategy like a boxer" is exactly that. It's taking the lead in an engagement. Not waiting for him to punch or kick to work defensively off of their movements, but throwing offensive combinations to open holes. For example, Using a left footed lead, throw a left jab followed by a left hook followed by a left round kick to the opponents thigh. The first two will probably be defended but the kick should land-- Like a boxer uses jabs to open holes.

[MightyB]

Yes San Shou is a sport but it was created to give martial artists an environment where they could test their skills in an unrestricted manner. It's not quite no holds barred MMA, but it's a safe alternative. It is intended for those people who complain that you can't challenge people to fights in the old way. You can do that in San Shou, you just have to be able to leave your ego and any pre-conceived notions outside of the ring. Reality bites, but it's a good experience to have if you're truly interested in becomming a complete martial artist. I lost to somebody with only a year of training. I have 9. He trained to fight from day one. Like I said, reality bites, but now I'm a completely different martial artist. There's very little BS in my personal interpretation of 7*. I have no room for kung fu fantasy and overly complicated defensive strategies. That's just me. But I had to learn the hard way by getting my bell rung. I'll continue to fight in San Shou matches for as long as I can. I'm getting old now for a fighter (28) and I wish I'd started fighting long ago but I was scared. But who isn't scared to fight?

[mantisben]

But, for me, I felt too defensive in free fighting/San Shou. What I mean by "offensive combination strategy like a boxer" is exactly that. It's taking the lead in an engagement. Not waiting for him to punch or kick to work defensively off of their movements, but throwing offensive combinations to open holes.

This is EXACTLY what I mean about PM being taught nowadays. PM wasn't created as a defensive style. The PM style is known for being AGGRESSIVE . If a PM practicioner is only using PM techniques when they are being attacked, then they're either not being taught PM fighting correctly, or still have alot to learn about PM "fighting". Not fighting but PM fighting.

Some PM instructors don't know how to apply PM techniques "agressively". Some just chose not to teach PM fighting right away. Some don't teach PM fighting soon enough. I know I wanted to learn PM fighting right away, but I wasn't ready for it.

The PM style is also known for attacking with combinations. If a PM practicioner lands a strike "right on the button", and you don't try to follow through with at least 2 more strikes (either hand or foot strikes), then that PM fighter is missing something.

To me, the aggressive application of attack combinations within PM are some of the most exciting discoveries I've made.

I don't know alot about PM, but one thing I do know, and that is the techniques of PM are aggressive and effective for combat. Whether I know how to apply them, or not.

These opinions are totally my own, and quite possibly WAAAY of the mark. I accept any sincere correction I have coming to me.

[Mantis9]

PM is aggressive. IMO, the common element between MightyB and mantisben is ting jing. When two opposing forces find themselves connected or "bridged," one can feel the intent of the other. At this point, aggressive intent and awareness to your opponents intent become clear simultenously.

The evidence is found in PM form and technique applications. Rarely, though very possible, I find a technique used without attachment between you and your partner. Also, counters and defensive movement to application rely heavily on this attachment as well. This lends itself intuitively to ting jing. I think this is very self evident to anyone who is evolved with PM for any good amount of time.

I can certainly understand why you, MightyB, see boxing taking the lead in engagement over mantis. In my experience, boxing application excels without this connection. In fact, for adept boxers with quick hands, attachment of any kind would almost be a hindrance. They are effectively "tied up."

However, I believe mantisben is right to say PM is aggressive. So, the question becomes how does a PM practitioner operate without ting jing or aggressively aqcuire this favorable position?

Mantis9

[Tainan Mantis]

MightyB,
One of your posts mentioned PM throws...

PM consists of one throw after another.
They are based on strikes which are applied in conjunction with the throw and also as a way to start the throw.

In sporting competitions of judo it is not permitted to use punches as a means to a throw.
On the good side of their randori training it is extremely aggressive and students must put in 100% or they get slammed.(actually you get slammed anyway).

In PM it is more difficult to learn the method as you must put in 100% in the preceding strike which is more painful. Eg; elbow to the neck, grab the throat etc...

The beginning stage in PM throws is Kaoda. The same Kao as the 12th character of the 12 character formula in 7* PM

[flem]

yes,san shau is sport, but is a step up from conventional sparring. the good part of it lies not in the competition but the conditioning to prepare for it. we incorported full contact because my class situation allowed it- everyone was tight there was no lawsuit worries. instead of rules though, we just went at it like regular sparring with along with sensitvity drills and sparring w/out gloves it has proven indespensable- just knowing how to take a punch is something most people don't experience until its the real thing and possibly too late.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Mantis9
...how does a PM practitioner operate without ting jing or aggressively aqcuire this favorable position?

Mantis9

I feel comfortable "monkey stepping" in behind a strong and quick jab. "Checking" the opponents lead-hand and striking with the other also works for me sometimes. But if my opponent moves his hands like a western boxer, it is more difficult to "check" or get a grip on that lead-hand.

Still, PM techniques (in my fighting experience, which I don't think is as extensive as MightyB's fighting experience) are best used once you get into the mid to close range.

I don't know what "ting jing" is, but if it is anything like sensitivity, I can't "operate" in a fight without it. Well, actually, I can. But then I'll be fighting like a western boxer, and not a PM fighter. In that case, revive me with smelling salt, I'm gonna need it.