How much does Heirarchy matter in the school?

[type01]

How much does Heirarchy matter in the school? to what degree should respect extend to? what are the boundaries? Of course you would respect the poeple who have a superior skill level to you, but also the ones who try hard and put effort into what they do even thought they might not be good at it yet.

How do you respect your sihing more than mutually when they are not even a decent role model, i.e.boasts about drinking etc...
But have a moderate skill level and has potential!

How do you even mutually respect them when they dont even try to correct bad techniques after a person of a greater skill level tells them whats wrong and how to do it correctly. Also, in two person drills, doesnt even punch properly so the person training with them cant improve that technique (also makes ppl feel bad about there technique).

How can one bless that person with the title of sihing if one has attained about equal skill to them in less time but naturally with much more effort ,sweat and blood.

How can one respect "sihing" if they have over inflated ego's? and nothing to back it up with?

Whats the right thing to do respect "sihing" and continue to let them do there thing? or what?

[Merryprankster]

Respect is earned, not given. Anybody who says otherwise is full of it. I don't "respect," the people who have been training longer than me. Ability is all that counts when it comes to respecting their abilities. Respecting somebody as a person is independent of their abilities in the MA, or at least should be. Halo effect anyone?

Worry about your development, and leave if you don't like the school or the attitude.

[type01]

its not the school, the sifu is awesome i learn alot from him and from my elders and even the younger ones! bunch of great people but just one or two particular persons dont help in furthering skill and inhibit improvement when training with them. And i dont like their attitudes.

how can you respect these people who have been trainging there longer?? And doesnt the persons character and attitudes reflect the way they train??

[Ish]

its up too each person how much effort they want to put in to get whatever results they want. so what if theyve been going longer and aren't as skillfull as someone else might be they might not want to be that good and might prefer spending there time doing other things.

[KnightSabre]

When I did Kung Fu the respect thing was very important and strongly emphasised.

When you enterred the school you had to take your shoes off,you also had to greet your seniors in ascending order.
You were taught that when you sparred the seniors you had to be very respectfull and if you hit them then they would take you out.

It was a fear kind of respect.
Often we would be training and then the door would open and all the seniors would walk in and line up against the wall,they would spar with us and be real rough,there would be blood noses,torn t-shirts tiger claw scratches all over,we rarley fought back and just tried to minimise the dammage.

There was this one senior who was about 4 years ahead of me,he used to be especially cruel and liked to back kick people in the stomachs knocking the wind out,he would then stand there and wait for you to recover and attack you again.
Anywayz I had been training BJJ for about 8 months on the side and the one day he started roughing me up,after about 2 minutes of abuse I took him down to the ground mounted him and controlled him,he couldn't get me off or do anything to me
it then dawned on me that the guy has weaknesses,why respect someone out of fear?

Now some 5 years later and things are so different in the new school,the begginners don't hold back when they grapple us,on the contrary they go all out to beat us,you know that these guys are giving it there all.
The respect is very different,after I've tapped a bigginner 5 times in a row without breaking a sweat he knows I'm better then him and gives me that repect.

We are also alot more approachable,in the kung fu school you hardly ever saw the begginners mingling and talking to the seniors,at the MMA school it's a very common thing

I'm sure this insn't the norm at all kung fu schools and MMA schools but thats my experience with them.

[dezhen2001]

For me it's simple... respect everyone

EVERYONE has their own experiences and point of view on a skill, - even someone junior to u. Maybe the Seniors and Juniors see things differently to you and can show you more of the whole skill.

To me, i listen to whatever my seniors can tell me, as i can see they have good skill... even if someone tries to help me and doesn't have so good skill i will listen and thank them.

At the end of the day u can compare what anyone tells you to what your Sifu says... so it's good that other people are doing their best to help you grow

Also, when doing anything you should ALWAYS do your best... that doesn't mean being aggressive, going all out or whatever, just using your mind and body to develop and understand the skill. Theres many ways to grow, and often doing it the right way is harder and not so clear.

Knightsabre: we ALWAYS mix and talk with the Seniors, as well as Juniors. Of course when trainng the class often splits up, as sometimes you don't understand the level yet. But theres so much u can learn from EVERYONE, andnot just about Kung Fu

just some thoughts,
david

[HopGar]

in my first school, itwas very karate like. I think I can leave it at that. At the Hop Gar school, there is now heirarchy really except for the senior instructor and of course, the sifu and everyone has mutual repct for each other. In the school I've been at temporarily, its run more like a karate school. This school is more of mixed conglomerate of different martial artists with different backgrounds. This school teaches practcial stuff ( btw, im these just so I can apply some of the stuf I know). However, everyone has mutual respect for everyone except for one guy who thinks his style (shotokan) is the end all and be all.

In all, everyone mixes with eachother, there is no separation of rank, you just know who's been there longer than you.

Peace Ya'll

[friday]

hi type01

here is some advice from my personal experience:

first of all u if u are the si dai (younger kung fu bro) of these people its probably not your place to openly criticize these people that u are unhappy about. As u are quite happy with your sifu and confident in the decisions he makes it is probably appropriate that u allow your sifu to address any issues.

these people behave the way they do because in part how their story has unfolded, their lives, experiences, friends etc. if u wish to change a person's attitude without the likely potential for direct highly emotionally charged confrontations do not criticise them and definitely not in public. this will only make them defensive and cause friction between yourself and these other ppl.

often a way to mold other ppl is to stand in their shoes and discuss things with them (the relevant issues u are concerned with) and point out how it would benefit them to adjust their behaviour. the best way to make lasting changes in other ppl is to get them to see how it would benefit them and to get them to want what u want.

it is important to note that none of this means that u have to give these ppl any respect that u don't feel they deserve or in your heart or mind to feel that they are great ppl when u think they are not.

i have once b4 met someone who had betrayed someone close to me. yet i smiled and treated them with the utmost courtesy. this is because i respect the decisions my friend had made and if he had forgiven and accepted that man's apolgoies and request to rejoin the group then it was certainly not my place to treat him any other way. in the same way u should trust your sifu as it is unlikely he hasn't noticed this behaviour. perhaps he is trying to change these ppl for the better

[The Willow Sword]

but honor your teacher(sifu) your founder(master)

as far as hierarchy goes. there are some people who have a position of instructor authority that are real fuk choads and they dont deserve sheeot exceot mutal respect and thats all. you dont have to bow to them.

i Bow to my Sifu and the founder of the system. when i was an instructor at SD i didnt want anyone to bow to me or refer me as sifu. i havent earned that title as of yet. the term is used too loosely these days. just as black belts are given out like candy.

MRTWS

[NPMantis]

I respect everyone to a point in the class, those who don't deserve it such as by being agressive or egotistical I have no respect for and those who show humility and a genuine nature I will hold much respect for.

[HuangKaiVun]

In my school (hopefully open within a month), everybody will be on equal footing - including myself.

Though I'll be teaching the classes, I'll be right there with the students participating in the drills.

My school will feature no ranking system. There will be no "seniors" or "juniors". We'll all be teaching each other, even in the beginning. I'll probably have people address me and each other by first name.

Sure I'll be the "instructor" by virtue of the knowledge I'll be offering, but that's pretty much where it ends.

[Merryprankster]

how can you respect these people who have been trainging there longer?? And doesnt the persons character and attitudes reflect the way they train??

I don't necessarily respect people who have been training longer. And their character and attitudes do NOT reflect the way the train--more often, the way they train reflects their real character and attitude, despite any "personal improvement," that the practice of the MA is supposed to confer.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I get in trouble with my CMA teachers for being to relaxed with my students - My group does not stand on ceremony, however there is a hierarchy, and a good reason for it.

Like MP says, respect has to be earned. But at first, that is the students job. My school has a definite inner and outer circle. The outer circle is where the public trains, they get good training, as best as we can give in a group class setting. People learn thier fundamentals, and solid material.

The inner circle are the people who have proven themselves and are tough enough to take the training. Character, loyalty, intelligence all play into it. Perfecrlty good players may never be part of that group because they just don't have all the factors needed to be there. There is also the simple fact that you are wasting my training time if you don't put out the effort. Until a student proves himself it's not about them.

It's not a special club that gets to 'lord it' over the other students. These are just the dedicated players. Most of these people become my friends over time, and other than the fact that I am the 'practice leader', there is an absence of confucian structure. A good example was one of my players who practiced another CMA before, wanted to offer me the seat at the head of the table, but I really wanted to be in the middle so I could talk to everybody. I just don't like standing on ceremony.

In my opinion most schools overdue the hiearchy thing. But in terms of running public classes, it is a useful tool - you train assistants and you can look around the room and gauge peoples ability - but for garage groups like mine, it is more based on the individuals effort. It can also be importasnt in groups because if certain players are immature - the hierarchy helps them conform to more mature behavior.

I guess we still have a sense of junior and senior - but in our club it is simply the chain of communication so everyone stays in touch and makes training. Often the seniors have more to do than juniors.

[dezhen2001]

imo the seniors at my school seem to have more to do than the likes of me... their own training as well as helping look after us! So it must be harder which is why they have my respect

david

[Water Dragon]

I have a pretty good idea where I stand in my school. But it's never been formally stated and there're always people popping in and out, so I try to respect everyone I meet. Knowing me, I'm likey to pi$$ off the wrong person, get my a$$ kicked, and get thrown out of the school. So I like to play it safe.