What is a 'fighting' BGZ class like?

[dedalus]

Count,

I'll have to be brief because I need to head out to work in a few minutes.

We mainly have pole sensitivity drills that are based on the pole form we practice. One drill is to follow crossed poles clockwise and counterclockwise until one of us gains control and accelerates the opponents pole beyond his control. One is then free to follow up with a poke to the throat/chest/forehead etc (a polite training partner shows some restraint at this point ). The difficulty lies both in maintaining contact through the direction changes, and not being overwhelmed by your opponent's jing. I guess you could call this "sticky pole"

We also have drills based on short sequences in the form to practise applications (generally someone will have to play the attacker for a few strikes before roles are reversed). There's a nice "black bear" method like this.

In general we don't go into pads and armour, in part because we train in a public space and in part because they don't do so much to protect againt injury. Nevertheless, some restrained sparring between good students who are interested in refining technique can be fun... I think its better than trading your most lethal attacks for the sweeps and pushes that armour is better at protecting you from.

I've seen some bagua pole sparring (and one-person training exercises) done around the circle, but I'm unfamiliar with these methods. I would be interested to have a look at a video on such methods if one were to become available. How about your own pole training?

[count]

We do the sticky pole stuff too. Good for developing chan su jin and listening energy. In fact the pole on the whole is great for developing whole body power. We use two types of poles. One heavy iron wood pole for training and the white waxwood pole for sparring. Our poles are at least 10 to 11 feet long and taper at the end just like spear. Kendo gear makes for some descent armour. At least kempo gloves to cover the hands as they take the bulk of the damage. We do alot of thrusting and cover and counter drills which really develop power off the back hand. Alot of it is about how your body moves with the pole in hand. Backhand tight with the pole across the dan tien. Rolling full circles for complete power. Hands moving together. Changing. Man I love that stuff.

LapisCircle,
Idaho sounds like Gods country to me. Except for the teacher part. I imagine some land could be obtained through the government if you had a good plan. Thanks for the input.

Huang,

Baguazhang allows one to fight well with either lead hand. That's why one does Single and Double Palm "Changes".

I don't see why in Baguazhang a person needs to fight the instinct to use one hand more than the other, even in a drill.

I'm not sure we have the same understanding of single palm change. Maybe if you explain what you think it is and how you train it, I could follow your example? Of course bagua teaches you to use either hand equally in a fight, but isn't that the point of the discussion. How do you train for fighting? Most people aren't born using either hand equally. I know your background in music gives you an edge but come on man, share something about bagua training here.

[HuangKaiVun]

count, look at my first post on this thread to see how I train the Single and Double Palm Changes.

You'll see that not only do I walk the circle, but I do line drills and rou shou as well.

I train my Single and Double Palm changes so that when an opening or opportunity presents itself, I can move on it without consciously thinking about it.

When I spar people, it's really not possible for an onlooker to tell if I'm doing a Single or Double Palm change. That's because when I hit a guy with a mid-section body punch, that's actually a transitional movement from the Double Palm Change. Or when I'm grappling and wrap my arm around his neck to break it, it's Single Palm Change.

I don't use both hands equally. However, I can fight going either left or right - or standing up - or on the ground. Baguazhang's principles are adaptable to any situation.

And under no circumstances do I favor the unnatural sophisticated solution over the natural simple one. That's because opponents FIGHT BACK. By the time one goes into his unnatural solution, the opponent is beating up the practitioner.

Ultimately, baguazhang isn't in the drilling or theory. It's in the spontaneous application.

[count]

I think you misunderstood where I was coming from. I liked alot of your training methods, many of which are not uncommon in our school and are uncommon in others. Backwards circlewalking and line drills and such are the way to go. Bagua push hands is a method of training I was talking about. Where I was confused is the idea of "freeze framing" anything in bagua which is afterall, continious and needs to be trained as such. You also said,

I train my Single and Double Palm changes so that when an opening or opportunity presents itself, I can move on it without consciously thinking about it.

That was somewhat my point. If it were completely natural it would be something you would not need to train at all. Blocking with the lead hand is no palm change at all. To change your intent and disolve something with the changing palm while striking with the other takes practice and training. But this or any application is not why I originally commented that bagua is unique. It is the training and it's approach to the ultimate goal of taking it with you until you are a very old man that make bagua different. And yes, I know that is the main focus of all "internal martial arts". It's the methods that make it unique. Methods which vary from school to school and are interesting to hear about.

[HuangKaiVun]

Good questions, count.

As far as my "freeze frame" bagua goes, here's what I've posted thus far:


In my 1st post on this thread, I describe how I adapt the Double Palm Change to Hsing Yi's "Heng" fist. I use that initial backhand blocking movement to hook the opponent in and then use the other hand to punch him.

In my 2nd post here, my 1st sentence displays my most basic usage of the Single Palm Change as a lead hand blocking technique.

In my 3rd post, I describe Hsing Yi's "Pao Quan", which is a body blow without the hook of the "Heng" fist. I also describe a headlock-type neck break in the Single Palm Change.


Basically, my bagua features variations off the Single and Double Palm Change possibilities.

[Nick Lo]

count

Huang's bagua's GOTTA be freeze frame as it was learned from books, and frequently paused videos.

[HuangKaiVun]

And rou shou.

Rou shou - you against me, Nick Lo.

Teach me a lesson.