Is Wing Tsun Leung Ting the best branch of wing chun?

[red5angel]

It just seems to me that chain punching is too committal and seems a little desperate to me. I am not saying there isnt a time and a place but that much focus on it seems dangerous.

[Frank Exchange]

Yep, the time and place is when you have a line to hit the opponent, and are in range to do so.

The concept of the chain punch is that of a short succession of punches to the same target area to do more damage. Much more likely to get a KO, for example, if the synovial fluid has been dispersed from around the brain by a previous strike.

But, this means two, maybe three, not twenty. If a practioner needs more than this, I would suggest that their punching method needs work. Two or three punches with the whole bodyweight behind them will do more than enough damage.

IMO punching from out of range is a waste of time, and the repetitive, machine gun like punching I have seen in some schools is both predictable and easy to counter.

[Steven Lamb]

what if the opponent is used to strong hooks and upper cuts, like say boxers/thai boxers. Two, maybe three thrusting punches might not cut it.

i agree that overuse of chain punching is silly. the demos are made to show the aggressive nature of WT, not the SOP of the system. I will continue my attacks (ie chain punching, elbows, knees) while there still is a threat and the way is still free.

Steve.

[UltimateFighter]

I totally disagree that chainpunching is a 'low level tool'. It is the natural extension of the straight line (character 3 sun) thrusting punch.

Unless you are thowing a sideling punch with hip rotation (similar to the one drilled extensively in the Yaun Kay san lineage), then you are going to be square on facing the opponent - it only makes sense to throw consecutive strikes. I agree that chainpunching is often over emphasised, but it is a powerful tool none the less. My feel is that the standard wing chun punch (i.e staying square without putting hip rotation in) is not powerful enough to finish a fight with one punch. It is not as powerful as the typical boxer straight cross for example because we tend to remain square and do not maximise turning force.

About the thread title......I started this thread as a question. I by no means feel that WT is far superior to other WC branches, and I have actaully picked some very good points through discussion here. All branches have something to offer and we are all in the end part of the same 'wing chun kuen' family.

Peace.

[red5angel]

Why the emphasis on the punch then? Chain punching is one of many many tools you can use. Most of them much less comitted and more effective.

[Steven Lamb]

R5A,
Please excuse my irgorance but what are these tools you speak of?


I find chain punching great when the opponent is still able to change range. If I can get to elbow/knee range and stay there(hard thing for me to do sometimes), then i agree that chain punches are not the best tool to use.

Chain punches are not a committing tool.


Crimsonking,

I agree that if it ain't working, then use something else. ..FAST!
But some people think that they can knock out someone with one thrusting punch after training for only 2 to 3 years. That type of power comes slowly. until I have that type power, i ll rely on mulitple attacks until i know the person is no longer a threat.


Steve.

[red5angel]

Steven Lamb, if I get into a fight my goal is to end it as soon as possible. there are plenty of other techniques that are much quicker and much more effective and taking an attackers mind off of fighting and redirecting it to finding a phone to call an ambulance. There are all sorts of dangling floppy bits on a combatant that can be broken, twisted, bent, etc,.. that dont recquire I open myself up like that.
It may sound more brutal, but I am one of those people who will do everything to keep it away from physical conflict, and I am a big guy, so if you are coming after me physically you want to do some damage in my opinion, and I cant take that chance.

[Tristan]

UF:

I totally disagree that chainpunching is a 'low level tool'. It is the natural extension of the straight line (character 3 sun) thrusting punch.

Wait until you´re in the Biu Tze thing: biutzesau´s, chumsao´s, faksao´s, biubongsao´s, dongfak´s and three elboys at your disposal.

T.

[Steven Lamb]

R5A,

quote:
"if I get into a fight my goal is to end it as soon as possible"

For Sure!
but I also want to do it as SIMPLY and effectively as possible too.
Maybe i'm just not there yet( the breaking, twisting, shattering my opponents limbs). I'm also still having trouble with my body's reaction to danger(tunnel vision, adrenaline, trembling knees, etc). Don't want to complicate things more then they already are.....


WORD.

[UltimateFighter]

We already train elbows and I have seen Biu Jee many times. Chainpunching is still the No. 1 tool to use as a finisher. Yes you can use the horizontal chops and finger attacks (although finger strikes to the ease are not practical in real life - human reflexes are too fast, read Hawkins Cheungs many accounts), but thry aint as reliable or powerful as chainpunching.

As usual, redangel has no idea what he is talking about. He keeps mumbling about 'lots of more effective and efficient ways to finish a fight in wing chun' yet hasn't named a single one. ven if there were, he wouldn't know them.

Okay red, I ask you to name ONE more effective technique in wing chun that can be used in a variety of situations that is more devastating than chain punching. The balls in your court.

[black and blue]

You know, we could all agree to disagree

Lots of people have a take on what WT is. Has anyone here ever done Chi Sau with Sifu Leung Ting?

What was it like? Any surprises?

I had the chance to attend one of his seminars a few years back, but work messed up my plans . I might not use chain punching as much as the WT guys, but I'm not sure if I'd argue the point with Leung Ting

Anyone with a hands-on Leung Ting story to tell?

[kj]

I am curious about something I've seen quite a lot in WT demo clips. When "finishing" an opponent [for example] this often seems to be via chain punches or elbows as described. The thing I'm most curious about, is that it seems the "victors" in such clips often bend, lean or kneel as the supposed opponent is falling down or on the ground, presumably in an effort to keep them within hand/arm/elbow range.

I realize that demo clips for purposes of publicity can be a different animal from recommended and actual practice in some cases. So wondering ... is bending over, leaning down, or kneeling generally advocated in your "real" practice? If so, is there any concern about compromising your own body structure and alignment, and why or why not?

My question is sincere, as I would like to better understand your practice and approach in this regard. Thanks in advance for your insights and perspectives.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gandolf269]

Dang this is long thread, but I've read the whole thing and will put in my 2 cents worth (btw I practice WT). To answer the original question - No WT isn't the best (or most effective) branch of Wing Chun. I think it is the best in my area that I have seen so far, but I haven't visited all of the schools in my area either.

Both UF and R5A - You guys have alot to learn about WT/WC. I don't doubt that you both have learned alot in the 2 years that you have studied but to make emfactical statements with your limited knowledge is rediculous. I would say the first thing you need to learn is respect for your elder Kung Fu brothers, regardless of what school their from.

We don't cross train (ie wrestling, or bjj), but we do train in ANTI-grappling every once in a while. Using WT principles. It's all there in the forms, you just have to know how to apply them. Coming from Texas where every kid learns how to tackle at an early age because of the importance placed on Football (not Soccer), most of the fights there tend to end up on the ground. So it may be more important depending on the part of the world you live in. But it is anti-grappling that is taught in WT - "Don't wrestle a wrestler."

To say that muscles are an important part of a punch is just stupid. Almost as stupid as saying it is the most important thing. UF - If it is the most important thing then why not spend your time lifting weights instead of training WT.

Yes, KK is in it for the money. That's his business. But I bet the owner of everyones school is in it for the money. Otherwise they would be in business for very long. Simple economics.

Because LS was LT's first and longest Sifu it only makes since that our schools have alot in common. It is only the pride of both Sifu's that keeps/kept them from acknowleging each other. (which in my mind is rediculous)


good wing chun/wingtsun in dependent on the individual and his/her application of the forms.

Peace!

[red5angel]

UF - Its not a matter of any one technique, unless of course your skill is lacking or you just feel like being predictable. There are any number of other options to 'finish' an opponent quickly. Of course, why 'play' with your opponent in the first place, why not 'finish' him right away?
KJ touched upon a point I brought up a while back and never recieved a satisfactory answer on. Why break structure by chasing your opponent to the ground to chain punch him when you can use your feet and be less vulnerable?
My other big question is why the heck would you have to do all of those chain punches to finish someone off? Where is the power? Why do you have to hit someone so many times in succession just to 'finish' the guy? Sounds like instead of speed you guys should be working on structure maybe?

Steve Lamb, I understand what you are saying. Those tools are in the forms and in the practice. Some you have to discover as you go along but thats half the fun of training!

[UltimateFighter]

I never stated that a punch's power is mostly dependent on strength. I just stated the (fairly obvious) fact that part of its power is derived from having well developed triceps.

About 'breaking structure'. That is a valid question and one that deserves a good response. I am limited in my knowledge on WT so I cannot say what is in the wooden dummy, knife or pole forms. But 'leaning' to finish someone with punches is a valid option. In fact in biu Jee there is a 'bending movement' accompanied with circling of the arms. So staying rigidly in stance is not a necessity.

I will say this: If you go to the ground, there is nothing in the forms which describes how to 'fight from the ground'. So does that mean you must give up? No, it just means that you must apply what you know to this practical situation. There is no movement in the forms about 'getting back to your feet'. But it would be ridiculous to stick so rigidly to the forms in their interpretation.

I maintain that the principle of Wing Chun is to 'stick to your opponent and finish'. If he falls to the ground but is not out, then finish him on the way down. Chainpunching is only one option of many, and I'm sure that Jurgen Kestner (the special op guy) knows and has used countless methods of finishing. That is just a demo, although a very impressive one.

Wing Chun's emphasis is also on speed over power. If you want power, I'd recommend boxing as a better method of generating single 'knockout' blows.