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Thread: Is Wing Tsun Leung Ting the best branch of wing chun?

  1. #301
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    I don't agree with anyone here, except what Yuanfen has written about real fighting. The rest seems to be a lot of empty posturing.

    Originally posted by rubthebuddha, the Rush hater
    terence,

    you hit a good point -- i don't think wing chun is a fighting art anymore. it's self defense.
    What does that mean? Bottom line: Self defense requires fighting unless as Wong Shun Leung suggested, you've mastered the art of invisibility.
    roof top fights, while typically challenge matches, often had rules too (don't crush the other guy's windpipe, for example) just like today's MMA tourneys. rooftop fights should probably be classified as MMA, because it was WC on CLF on mantis on ... just because arts from other countries weren't there doesn't mean the fight is unmixed. hung gar on wing chun is certainly a healthy mixed of flavors.
    You're confusing the meanings of these match-ups. The roof top fights were useful in determining for the individuals what worked and what didn't, and no, I can't grant that they were MMA as it is usually construed. That's foggy thinking. Today's MMA competitions are about winning, usually for a purse, aren't they? Are there any well-regarded MMA competitors who don't compete exclusively for money? Well, the rooftop contestents did....
    regardless of wing chun's beginnings, circumstances have changed. passing on kung fu as your part in secretly rebelling against the dynasty at hand has little purpose in the grand scheme of things these days, and it has little or no political purpose in the western world. the US or NATO or whatever doesn't give two ****s what martial art i study if any.
    Crikes! The futility of a liberal arts education these days. Wing Chun skills and principles can be applied in many areas of modern life. The armed forces and police powers of the world have nothing to do with with it. It's more about holding your own in a potentially violent and unpredictable world when civilized behavior goes on hiatus in your vicinity.
    as far as a lack of emphasis on fighting skills, that's your opinion. according to the legend of ng mui and yim wing chun, was wing chun developed as a fighting art, or one of defense? wing chun didn't see to desire to hurt the local bully. she just wanted him to leave her alone. so she learned to fight, but only because the issue of avoidance became a harder possibility. would she have learned to fight had that bully not been handy?
    More liberal arts confused thinking. To defend herself against the bully, the legend says Yim Wing Chun learned a deadly skill set, a fighting art. If she had never met Ng Mui, how would her need for self defense have been different? How do you know she wouldn't have gravitated to martial arts eventually?
    self-defense, by nature, is fighting.
    This is true, but what follows is a rhetorical fallacy.
    but there's a big difference between competitive fighting in MMA and studying for self defense: i train to defend myself no matter when and where, but I would rather not fight at all. comptetitors train to fight, and sign themselves up for a fight.
    MMA, as a ring sport, is not fighting. It's playing rough. I train Wing Chun. I train to fight if necessary. Disclaimer: I have not had a fight since I've studied Wing Chun.
    think of the difference in active vs. passive. an MMA competitor actively engages in a fight because they wish to, for whatever reason.
    Active versus passive shows more muddled thinking. If you're going to defend yourself, you better be able to do so actively. As for the motivation of MMA competitors, money and glory come to mind. The key word you posited was competitor, not fighter.
    one focused on self defense passively fights -- not intentionally but because of circumstances. that doesn't reflect on how the passive fighter fights, but how they view the act of violence in the first place -- they don't want it, but will use it if provoked. an active fighter will provoke themselves to fight even though they don't need to.
    Passively fights. Spoken from deeply held tenets of ignorance and inexperience, no doubt.
    to me, the apparently lack of good WC fighters has less to do with skill and more to do with intention. only a small percentage are really capable of competitive fighting on the highest level, but the same goes for any martial art. we just happen to know more WC folks who'd get romped if they entered the octagon.
    Most of the people with the natural abilities and inclinations to fight professionally come from humble origins that encourage the settling of disputes by violent means. You don't see a lot of East coast preppies competing in the Octagon. Wing Chun though, as a TCMA, attracts (and keeps) only those with certain attributes not necessarily associated with athleticism. We long-term Wing Chun students tend to mirror some of the personality traits of our teachers, who for the lucky, are good and beneficent. A violent, impatient, and aggressive individual is unlikely to achieve the understanding of Wing Chun needed to make it work in MMA. And the rest of us don't give a **** about the competition.
    Uber Field Marshall Grendel

    Mm Yan Chi Dai---The Cantonese expression Mm Yan Chi Dai, translates to "Misleading other people's children." The idiom is a reference to those teachers who claim an expertise in an art that they do not have and waste the time and treasure of others.

    Wing Chun---weaponized Chi (c)

  2. #302
    How come your replies have to be personally insulting so often Grendle? Why do you have to mock someone else or their education or imply that other people are stupid? If you are trying to be funny you aren't. If you are trying to look better or smarter you don't.

    Other than a chance to diminish other people and be rude I don't really see what your point was in that last message. It looked as much like rhetoric as anything the others wrote. I can't even see what you are really disagreeing with so maybe you just like to argue and sound important instead of being real. Your opinion also looks hypocritical but maybe I am confused because of the way you wrote it.

    I LIKE hearing different peoples thoughts and considering what they have to say so I hope they won't stop because of you. You seem pretty smart so I hope eventually when I see your name I can again think great there is Grendle I wondier what he has to say instead of crap there is Grendle again.

    I apologize to the other peoplr for ranting but maybe some of them see it like I do. If your being genuine and you just can't help the way you communicate then I apologize to you to.

  3. #303
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    "rubthebuddha" wrote:

    I believe the ultimate goal is no harm for either individual -- hence, as close to the "fight not fought" as you can get while still having to physically defend yourself. i don't train to fight for the sake of fighting, but rather i train to fight to have it as a tool in case i need it. "rub"

    From my perspective, WCK is a fighting method (kuen faat). Your "ulitmate goal" -- while philosophically admirable -- is not IMHO our method's goal. Historically, WCK never even reflected White Crane's "check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, etc." but rather speaks of "gong sao mo gong ching sao" (when fighting, don't speak of politeness). To develop fighting skills we must fight; approaching it from the pov of "I train to fight" while never actually fighting IME will just not work. Actually fighting (genuinely attempting to apply one's skills) is an integral and necessary part of training to fight (learning to actually apply one's WCK). It isn't a tool but skills we are trying to develop. If someone doesn't fight, IME the skills won't be there "in case they need it." TN
    ---------------------

    anyhoo, that's how it is from my hilltop. are we still looking at the same thing, just from different sides? "rub"

    IMO our difference of opinion isn't simply seeing the same thing from different perspectives but reflects a difference in approach at a fundamental level. If we look at WCK historically, and look at its significant figures (the one's that developed and spread the art), we see that they all fought to develop their skills. Yuen Kay-San actually set up challenge fights for Sum Nung (much as boxing promoters do today, to "develop" their fighters); Yip Man told his students to "go out and test it for yourself; I may be tricking you." I can't see a single case of one of them expounding a philosophy of "the ultimate goal is no harm for either individual" or suggesting that "i don't train to fight for the sake of fighting, but rather i train to fight to have it as a tool in case i need it". If you take the "martial" out of martial art or the "fighting" (fist) out of kuen faat, we're left with nothing IMHO. TN

    Terence

  4. #304
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    Originally posted by rubthebuddha
    joy,

    well, at least you should admit that UFC and such are the best examples one-on-one, caged, controlled, refereed, doctored, planned fights in tights you've seen, right?
    Whooops! Clearly you are completely ignorant of MMA or real fighting to come up with such a load of rubbish. I guarentee that if you were ever to 'roll' with people who train MMA and say that, you wouldn't last a minute before being KO'd, choked out, or made to tap. Have more respect for people who train for real fighting as opposed to some journalist who has no idea and posts on the internet.

    You made some partialy coherent points about Wing Chun being a 'defence' art, although the waffle about personal perspective of the art is irrelevent. It is also ridiculous that you are attemting to use the legend of the arts origin (yes legend means it is likely not true it is only a myth) to justify its use. That is foolish. To analyse the usefullness of the art, look at the art itself as it is taught. Wing Chun Kuen is a fighting art. (Kuen = the art of fighting) And make no mistake, most competent Mixed martial artists would be able to 'defend' themselves in a real encounter much better than 95% of wing chun fighters out there. It is all down to training. You may be surprised to learn that MMA'ers train for real life as well as the 'sport' and what they train is much more realistic in general than most WC or WT schools.

    The bottom line is, rooftop fights in Hong Kong are again hearsay. There are some unimpresive footage of 'youths' fighting but it is no more reliable than storytelling. These fights had rules as well. We have an open platform for MMA now so there can be no more hiding behind myths and stories. Put up or SHUTUP as they say. Hence you will not hear excuses from me about wing chun's failings. Until wing chun has had an impact in MMA, it can only be said that it is not effective in that realm. And since MMA is as reasonably close to reality as we can get, it must be acertained that the way wing chun is taught usually without proper sparring does not make good fighters for the street either. That is where MMA has brought about cross training, and an evolution of martial arts. The guys who still rely on myths and stories are unfortunateloy about 10 years behind and have missed the revolution to martial arts that MMA has brought about.
    FCF: So, who will you be facing at the next PRIDE event?

    'It doesn't matter who the opponent is, I expect to win by knockout'

    -Vanderlai Silva

  5. #305
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    Long thread lots of good points,lots of bad. One thing are you all sure WC has not been effective in UFC etc?

    If WC concepts were used and worked would you say WC worked? Or does someone have to be labled a WC fighter for WC to work? In a fight how much WC would you really see 2 techniques 5 ,10 or would you look to see the application of concepts? Do you think a master WC fighter will make WC look pretty. Should you be able to clearly discern each and every movement so you can identify them as WC?

    How many people think the rooftop footage we have seen shows bad WC? How many think is shows what a real fight miight look like? Do people stay in close so you can do your thing or do they move in and out all around etc so you may have to chase them?

    Joy and Grendel your posts stand out as good stuff.

  6. #306
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    Hunt 1 sez:

    If WC concepts were used and worked would you say WC worked? Or does someone have to be labled a WC fighter for WC to work?
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Hunt 1.
    Good statement on a key issue. The inability or unwillingness to go beyond
    labels is a barrier to serious communication- specially in CMA
    including wc.

    WC folks often ina knee jerk way say that wc is a concept based art...but understanding and seeing the implementaion of a concept involves a clear mind and listening to and seeing nature at work..
    I tend to look for a critique of wing chun principles in any successful motion.

    When I see a graceful Asian or African woman walking witha pot of water on her head- it confirms wing chun structural concepts about alignment for me ...often better than is the case for males who tend to use
    more muscles in alignment just because they have them.
    . No negative connotation intended on other kinds of women.
    joy

  7. #307
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    Originally posted by rubthebuddha
    kathy jo,

    well, if that's the way you want to think of it, i challenge you to a ... a... cup of tea the next time (which would be the first, if/when it happens) i'm in ny.
    LOL, I'd be honored. We could also go for a bit more than tea, with the caveats that a) we should not intend to hurt one another for purposes of learning, and b) we should immediately forgive one another if we do. Feel free to email me any time in case we can arrange something.

    As time and inclinations allow, we can also further explore the nuances of what constitutes a "fight," a "fighter," justifications for intentionally causing harm, and the ambiguities and ethical ramifications in all of these. But above all, you simply must explain to me about the bacon sammiches.

    Regards,
    - Kathy Jo

  8. #308
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    Hunter wrote:

    How many people think the rooftop footage we have seen shows bad WC? H

    IMO the issue isn't whether the rooftop fights were good or bad examples of WCK in action; the point is that they were a necessarly part of a WCK *fighter's* training. They were learning situations and need to be viewed as such. Those WCK practitioners that engaged in UFC were -- or it should have been their focus -- learning. To develop a high degree of skill in any activity requires one actually do that activity as part of their skill development (imagine thinking one could become a race car driver just by driving to and from the grocery store!). Only, it seems, in some TCMAs do folks think they can become superlative fighters by magic. TN

    BTW, Wang Xiangshai, the founder of Yi Quan (who reserved one day a week to meet all-comers and was never defeated) and a well-known fighter, in an interview said: "Anyway, after finding an excellent teacher, the profundity or shallowness of one's attainments depend upon one's individual talent, strength, skill, and whether one can grasp the right timing to be able to launch an attack at any moment, but without experience in actual fighting, it is hardly possible to gain it." Of course, those that don't have it and never fight, don't miss it.

    Terence
    Last edited by t_niehoff; 12-22-2002 at 07:27 AM.

  9. #309

    Brass tacks

    T_niehoff, who have you fought? How often do you fight? Were they real fights where people actually wanted to hurt each other or more like heavy sparring where people were trying to test things but not kill each other? If they were real fights did you use wing chun? We need some stats here.

  10. #310
    Originally posted by Grendel

    Because Grendel is evil, you dope.
    Then you are too.

  11. #311
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    "Fresh" wrote:

    t_niehoff, who have you fought. F

    This, unfortunately, is all to often the natural response of folks that don't like someone's opinion: now the focus changes from a discussion on the issue (in this case WCK training) to a discussion about the person involved in the discussions. It always makes me wonder why these folks don't try to actually refute the position they disagree with instead of making it personal; but then, the fact that they don't go that route IMO shows they can't refute it. TN

    I've given my opinion, it is based on my experience -- and includes what what I've learned from meeting folks that both can use WCK and those that only think they can. If you think that my conclusion of "to develop a high degree of skill in any activity requires one actually do that activity as part of their skill development ability" rests in some way on my own fighting ability (which, of course, it doesn't) then you are always welcome to visit me and see for yourself. FWIW, yes, I do practice what I preach. But why take my word for it? Either pay me a visit or stop by the next Friendship Seminar (if they ever have one again) -- though I don't think I'll see you soon. Folks afraid to even use their real name on the 'net aren't likely to screw up the courage to meet anyone. TN

    Terence

  12. #312
    Lighten up T.

    You don't have to be insulted any time someone asks you questions and you don't have to be insulting in return.

    Yes I would like to know if you practice what you preach but just saying you do this or that doesn't make it credible. We need data to put your opinion in perspective and you don't need to insult me because I asked. It will work better if you answer my questions instead of try to read my mind. So far you didn't answer any of my questions or help me understand any better, you only restated your philosophy. I asked you logical questions and there isnt anything personal about it. So far I don't see any reason why your opinion carries more weight than any one elses, but if you answer my questions maybe you can help out. \

    So one more time,

    Who have you fought? You can be general if you don't want to name names, its their qualifications that count.

    How often do you fight?

    Were they real fights where people actually wanted to hurt each other or more like heavy sparring where people were trying to test things but not kill each other?

    If they were real fights did you use wing chun?

    Thanks in advance!

  13. #313
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    Grendel,

    happy to see you're above the personal insults.

    why yes, i do enjoy a liberal arts education -- particularly from one of the most highly rated public universities in the country. i enjoy it enough that i chose to work for said uni following graduation. i enjoy it because it gave me breadth of education rather than just a single-minded focus.

    apparently the same open-mindedness escaped you, as your focus seems to be a bit narrow. i differentiate fighting and defending, and apparently you missed the message by quite a bit, and the same goes for active versus passive, even though you proved my point for me.

    active and fighter would apply to those whose job it is to fight -- a soldier. passive and defender would apply to those whose job is not fighting. some people here are soldiers and study their art to better them at the violent side of their job. most people's jobs have nothing to do with violence, but violence in the world may enter into their life. when that happens, they want to be ready. they don't engage in the violence by choice as a soldier may, but they do not wish to be disadvantaged in a violent situation.

    open your mind a little bit. wing chun is a fighting art, period. but i don't use it to fight. it's a method for defending myself, strengthening myself and improving the world around me.

    UF,

    you seem to be suffering from the same foolishness you speak of. while i jabbed at the nature of mma, i said nothing of the ability of MMartists. some are very skilled and will hand me my ass if we fought. and i watch such tourneys, work out with MMartists, discuss concepts and work out some more for the sheer reason of knowing what i would be up against were i to have to defend myself against an MMartist. it betters my skill while makes me aware of concepts and techniques outside my knowledge. it exposes me to other arts for the benefit of familiarizing myself with it, and working what i learn into my wing tsun, and the guys i train with learn concepts about wing tsun so their abilities are more well rounded as well. my ignorance of MMA goes no further than your mind.
    " i wonder how many people take their post bone marrow transplant antibiotics with amberbock" -- GDA

  14. #314
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    kj,

    it's a plan. tea and training? and i apologize right now for the errant fak sau. it's a fault i'm trying to train out.
    " i wonder how many people take their post bone marrow transplant antibiotics with amberbock" -- GDA

  15. #315
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    "Fresh" wrote:

    Yes I would like to know if you practice what you preach but just saying you do this or that doesn't make it credible. F

    Exactly. That's why I suggest you pay me a visit and see for yourself. Or at the very least, listen to Yip Man or Sum Nung, etc. who say the same things. But once again, since you didn't seem to grasp the thrust of my last post let me repeat it: the validity of the proposition that one must actively engage in the activity one is trying to develop skills at to truly develop those skills doesn't depend on me (if I didn't say it or can or can't fight it would still be so). I presented it, explained why it is so (though it seems patently obvious to me unless you think you'll magically achieve these skills), and mentioned that "the great ones", like Yip Man, Sum Nung, Yuen Kay-San, etc., have either said the same thing or practiced it or both. If your goal is truly to "understand better" as you say then I suggest you put on your thinking cap and also get out and investigate for yourself. I've yet to hear a compelling argument for a contrary opinion. TN

    We need data to put your opinion in perspective. F

    The truth of what I say doesn't depend on my "data". If you want to become a good racing-car driver, you need to actually race cars; if you want to become a good surgeon, you need to actually do surgery, etc. I'm neither a race car driver nor a surgeon but that doesn't detract from the validity of my point. The principle is self-evident (and we see it in all areas of our lives) and if you examine the training racers or surgeons or whatever go through, you'll see that their training necessarily involves actually doing the activity that they are trying to develop. What makes people think fighting is somehow different than every other human activity? TN

    Terence

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