Is Wing Tsun Leung Ting the best branch of wing chun?

[aelward]

John Weiland writes:
> Besides, I believe we proved the worth of Leung Sheung style
> BBQ on Saturday.

I hope you realize I was speaking in jest, about "all the Leung Sheung people..." as I am sure we have all seen and experienced, a "lineage" is not necessarily defined or even practiced by the most vocal descendants.


>It was a pleasure meeting you and your students.

Likewise. Sorry we didn't get a chance to roll, maybe next time, when our stomachs are not likely to purge their contents from a gentle ab-shot.

[red5angel]

Ultimatefighter, while I may agree with you on your assessment of John W, I would have to disagree with the idea that ALL fights go to grappling. I think if you are in MMA or a grappling school you might be more apt to believe it, much like a TMA guy may be more apt to think the opposite. I think the chance is always there and you should be prepared, but take some time cruising all the sites that have video of street fighst and such. In my own personal experience , the fights I have seen have rarely gone to the groud, although normally the looser ends up on the ground after a good shot or two.
I say the best choice is that while you should be prepared for any eventuality, you should always train to control a fight and play on your own terms and not on theirs. Before John W goes off on an inaccurate judgement of what I just said, let me say that I dont think you always have control, but you can train to have it most of the time.
I dont like the way WT seems to always take it to the ground, its yet another thing I think is not very wingchun like. If you train for eventualities most of your fights on the street will not go to the ground.
There is another thread about WC getting its butt kicked by MMA. here is I think why, MMA guys train to go to the ground, they want to tie you up and either submit you or ground and pound you. Thats not necessarily wing chuns fighting strategy but the only guys I have seen use wc in the ring try to play on these MMA guys terms and the shouldnt. They should be prepared for it. In the ring they may even have to train hard for it.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter

Unfortunately, your comments prove you have never been in a real fight and know very little about real martial arts. Grappling is involved in all fights. It doesn't matter what style you do, grappling will take place.

The thread asked a question about WT which I tried to answer. Sorry if you can't bear the truth.

I have been in martial arts for more than 30 years, and unfortunately for my karma, I've been in many real fights, often against multiple opponents. Before training Wing Chun I did get surprised ONCE and got taken to the ground where I knocked out one opponent and then recovered my feet and chased his three friends away after ruining their day. I admit in my other scraps, I kept my feet and encouraged my opponents to go to the ground the hard way.

If you don't believe me, watch the supposed top Yip man student William Cheung grappling and rolling around the floor with Emin Boztepe, before Emin kindly elbowed him into submission (from a mount position on the ground).

I don't consider that incident to be proof of anything, but what I've been saying. No trained Wing Chun fighter goes to the ground. Their fight demonstrated that neither knew what to do. Boeztepe's attacks were clearly ineffective. Cheung wasn't hurt, let alone knocked out. Clearly Boeztepe's training up to that time in WT was insufficient.

You really are going to be in for a big wakeup call if you ever get into a fight, much less with a wrestler or Judo practioner........

Judo was a lot of fun, but I found jiu jitsu was more practical. As for wrestling, I don't consider it fighting, just sport, rough maybe, but just sport.

As for hooks- Yip man taught hooks, so what is your problem with them?

A hook is a formidable weapon for some people. The problem with hooks is that they deviate from the centerline and in my boxing experience, most people cannot deliver them properly. If hooks are being emphasized in Wing Chun, it's because the teachers don't understand Wing Chun principles.

And I started Chi -sau within 4 months of training WT. Maybe if you get to my level one day you will realase that it is not how much you learn, it is how you apply what you have learned that counts.

I've only been studying Wing Chun for five years, but I suspect you don't know what you don't know. Sorry if I've burst your bubble. I have met many WT folks and after they have experieced what Wing Chun is, I've seen many of them defect to better instruction.

Regards,

[red5angel]

30 whole years! And you only got surprised once! Mayeb you and Boztepe should hook up and compare fight records, he has 300 undefeated. But it does sound so very impressive on the internet.

[anerlich]

Jedi Knight is the religion of 70,000 Australians.

I am pleased to say I am not one of them.

[tnwingtsun]

"No trained Wing Chun fighter goes to the ground."

WT 101 as explained to me,"don't go to the ground,if you end up down there,get up ASAP!"



"And I started Chi -sau within 4 months of training WT."


IMO,MUCH TOO SOON!!

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by red5angel
30 whole years! And you only got surprised once! Mayeb you and Boztepe should hook up and compare fight records, he has 300 undefeated. But it does sound so very impressive on the internet.

Once again, you have impressed me. Wish you could have made it to the Bay Area WC picnic. There is more to Wing Chun than Minneapolis.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by anerlich


I am pleased to say I am not one of them.

Little wonder why the government tracks them though. If they get big enough, look to see a Yoda for PM campaign.

Cheer up, all. Winter's coming on and Minneapolis communications should be subject to weather outages. Hang in there.

[planetwc]

Red5,

Please consider the following:

1. John trains within the SAME lineage as YOU DO for 5 Years.
2. John has trained longer in THAT lineage than YOU HAVE.
3. John has cross trained in Judo AND Ju Jutsu.
4. John has streetfighting experience.

Something for both you and your new buddy "Ulitmate Fighter" to understand before you make assumptions about people you don't really know and have never crossed hands with. I have spent many years training with John in Wing Chun and have an actual perspective to draw upon in that regard.

So before you PUBLICALLY disparage your si-hings, you might want to do some homework before continuing to stir things up.

regards,

David Williams

Originally posted by red5angel
30 whole years! And you only got surprised once! Mayeb you and Boztepe should hook up and compare fight records, he has 300 undefeated. But it does sound so very impressive on the internet.

[anerlich]

If they get big enough, look to see a Yoda for PM campaign.

Some of our senior politicians resemble him physically. And many have the charisma and intelligence of a renovated green glove puppet with funny ears.

Arguably he could manage the country as well as some of the incumbents. Jeez, even Jar Jar could.

I'd say you guys have an equivalent situation with Dubya

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by anerlich


Some of our senior politicians resemble him physically. And many have the charisma and intelligence of a renovated green glove puppet with funny ears.

We have the former president who does a fair impression of Jabba the (Pizza) Hut.

Arguably he could manage the country as well as some of the incumbents. Jeez, even Jar Jar could.

We just sent one of our congressmen (Jim Trafficant) to prison for his Jar Jar hairstyle or some such transgression.

I'd say you guys have an equivalent situation with Dubya

Maybe so. I haven't seen the stats on mental misfits...er...Star Wars worshippers who voted in the last election. I think that on a recent thread, it was noted that most are in prison or Minnesota in this country. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck are reportedly frequent top vote getters in Minnesota, where they have a cartoonish former pro wrestler as governor.

Regards,

[Rolling_Hand]

Quote:
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Red5,

Please consider the following:

1. John trains within the SAME lineage as YOU DO for 5 Years.
2. John has trained longer in THAT lineage than YOU HAVE.
3. John has cross trained in Judo AND Ju Jutsu.
4. John has streetfighting experience.--from PlanetWC
---------------------------------------------------------------------

History is mostly guessing; the rest is prejudice.

The intellegent man never underestimates his opponent!

[planetwc]

Roger,

Perhaps those lips may disclose your decoder ring.

Course if History is to be our guide: you're ****ed to repeat peeking through your own keyhole!

The eyes still have it...even when you bow!

Don't go changin, tryin to please me.

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------

History is mostly guessing; the rest is prejudice.

The intellegent man never underestimates his opponent!

[dbulmer]

John Weiland,

I am a WT guy and like all WC guys you meet the good, the bad and the downright ugly! The only reason I want to get involved in this thread is to point out some misconceptions you have re WT. PS this is not a John Weiland bash - I respect you and your lineage but you did make one or 2 brash comments about the Wing Chun.

"Yip Man Wing Chun puts its emphasis on precision, structure, position, sensitivity, and power. This is less mechanical than the WT approach. So called street orientation just allows for sloppy techniques. So called street orientation just allows for sloppy techniques. "

We practice against sloppy technique that has no rhythm or sense behind it - that is street orientation. We practice footwork against resisting attackers to improve the precision of our body structure and to hone our defensive and attack skills. To assume we are sloppy is about as sensible as saying that every beginner can pick up WC in 5 minutes. You practice, if you are rubbish (like me) you stop, take stock and try again - it's hard work Gung Fu my man

The WT approach is far from mechanical though it might look that way particularly when viewing inexperienced WT guys who constitute the largest grouping in any one class - most WT guys including the EBMAS guys won't recognise your description because we do concentrate on precision, structure position and power.

Sensitivity is usually trained later when you are deemed good enough in basics to appreciate the skills being acquired. Chi sao after 4 months is unusual.


snip .. "Only among grapplers. In Yip Man Wing Chun, it is not emphasized because it is not needed and not often effective against a real fighter.

To not train grappling is just plain silly, to incorporate grappling but to concentrate on core standup skills is sensible. Grappling is a range we don't want to be in but to dismiss it doesn't sound wise. Where I train, core WC skills are emphasised at all stages and at all times - we train Wing Chun, we train anti-grappling because it can and does happen in the street but the anti-grappling is not the be all and end all.

As for hooks, they exist and they are trained - they can be effective in certain situations but they are not overemphasized (nor should they be IMHO).











As for grappling, it's right that we should be taught it,

[Neo]

I dont like the way WT seems to always take it to the ground, its yet another thing I think is not very wingchun like. If you train for eventualities most of your fights on the street will not go to the ground.

Your statement smacks of "my wing chun skills will make it impossible for a grappler to take me down" syndrome, yet you then say MOST of the fights wont go to the ground. What happens when it does?

WT doesnt always take it to the ground the key emphasis at that range is ANTI-grappling. WT trains this both at stand up and then if you are still unfortunate to have been taken down. personally, if one of the fights I have is the one that goes to ground, I'd like to think that I can rely on skills and experience learnt at that range to get me out of there, instead of getting my head stomped by all and sundry.