Is Wing Tsun Leung Ting the best branch of wing chun?

[Grendel]

Hi Andrew,

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hey Grendel,

I've realized that it's not in me to stand by while I see something done poorly by a child.

Good for you. You find out a lot about people by how they treat the old and the young.

Yup- Grendel was a backup story in the original Mage series by Matt Wagner, inked by Rich Rankin, published by Comico. It's gone on to be a franchise and is actually extremely cool. Mage was a modern retelling/re-examination of the Arthur/ Fisher King legend. Grendel (the backup) was chronicle of the life of an incredibly dapper criminal and assasin, an intellectual and physical prodigy who became an acclaimed author, while unifying control of a number of organized crime families by the sword. The conflict centers around a misshapen semi-human mystic who stalks him while maintaining a friendship with his adopted 7 year old daughter. The art was a spectacular riff on art deco.

Err, yes, I've read too many comics.

LOL! You seem to know a lot about the comics business.

Thanks for the explanation of Matt Wagner's comics. I couldn't make heads or tails of 'em on my brief perusal at the local comics store, but I found them disconcerting since Grendel is my chosen nom-de-plume here on KFO.

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hey Andrew,

I always enjoyed Grendel (& Argent) more than Mage (still have the graphic novel around somewhere), but I hear tell the Mage movie is in development. Maybe there'll be a cameo for Grendel (either Wagner's or this boards )

RR

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene, Grendel,

Mage and Grendel both rocked, IMHO. Hopefully the Mage movie will come off. After X-men and Spiderman, appearantly the studios have bought the rights to everything humanly possible, in yet another insane Hollywood goldrush.

As a recovering comic collector- I managed a store back in high school when Mage and Grendel came out - (I only do graphic novels now, man, not the hard stuff, no issues, keep the monthlies away, I'll get out of control, I'm in a group, really, look put the issue away. . . I think I need to call my sponser), I still feel the need to make you jealous , Rene. Mint run of Mage. Grendel graphic novel- hardcover, limited edition, signed by Matt Wagner, and Rich Rankin (friend of a friend at the time).

Yes, I am a complete geek.

****, I should probably have included something on Wing chun in this post.

Catch you later,

Andrew

[UltimateFighter]

This conversation has gone totally off topic. If you want to discuss child rearing I suggest you go to a family counceling forum not a wing chun one.

[yuanfen]

well ultimate fighter- you have struck out so far in showing any depth of understanding of wing chun yourself and little interest in learning it.. Surely there must
be another forum which will provide you with greater "happiness"-
however defined.

[UltimateFighter]

I find it ridiculous that you think you can decifer ones wing chun ability from posting on a forum. But you have much too say. The substance of it is another matter.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
I find it ridiculous that you think you can decifer ones wing chun ability from posting on a forum. But you have much too say. The substance of it is another matter.

You don't know how well you've scriven.

Back to the WT thread, check out what Emin Boeztepe said.
www.ebmas.net

He said Wing Chun is a complete art. Emin said "Kernspecht does Blitz Defense which doesn't work at all." He goes on, "We have some Wing Chun guys teaching another style, as say jiu jitsu, as Wing Chun anti-grappling to get them on the cover of a magazine, selling an illusion of Wing Chun and that's a lie."

Emin goes on to say that Kernspect changed his techniques every two years to gouge his students for more money and admits that this is what stretches out the system's learning time.

Many people have known and said the same things over the years, but maybe you should believe it when it comes from the most notable exponent of WT.

Ultramat Fighter, you've been had. Go ask for your money back.

[UltimateFighter]

Considering Kernspecht taught Boztepe most of what he knows, I don't think his comments are entirely justified.

Secondly, I have repeatedly stated that I do not by all the bull**** that WT spews, or any branch of Wing Chun. But there is a reason WT is the biggest WingChun branch in the world. It is up to you to find out.......

[old jong]

It is so stupid that it is vain to try to bring some common sense to it!...will we have enough of this bull**** some day?

[Miles Teg]

But there is a reason WT is the biggest WingChun branch in the world. It is up to you to find out.......

Yes, its called marketing.

[red5angel]

Ultimatefighter, I have said this before, WT is a marketing machine. They have guys at the top who look good doing it and who have a lot of athletic ability. I have visited two of thier schools and attended a seminar with Emin Boztepe (who has his own company now but teaches the same stuff) and what they offer is a quick flashy fix. It all looks cool, its fast, and you get to start sparring almost right away so it can be exciting, but it is heavily reliant on athletic ability and strength which to my understanding is not one that wing chun adheres to. while what they teach may work very well for someone who is at the top of his game, it is practically useless to those who are small and light and it should not be. On top of all this they have jumped on the grappling band wagon and so draw people in who are looking for something "more" then wingchun or grappling.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
Considering Kernspecht taught Boztepe most of what he knows, I don't think his comments are entirely justified.

What about Boeztepe's statement that that Kernspect changed his techniques every two years to gouge his students for more money and admits that this is what stretches out the system's learning time? In which two year period did you learn?

Secondly, I have repeatedly stated that I do not by all the bull**** that WT spews, or any branch of Wing Chun. But there is a reason WT is the biggest WingChun branch in the world. It is up to you to find out.......

Uh, no. If true, it's up to you to find out. The "bull****" just might be embodied in its teachings. If you think WT is the best lineage, then Leung Ting must have been the best student, whoever his teachers were.

Regards,

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by red5angel
Ultimatefighter, I have said this before, WT is a marketing machine. They have guys at the top who look good doing it and who have a lot of athletic ability. I have visited two of thier schools and attended a seminar with Emin Boztepe (who has his own company now but teaches the same stuff) and what they offer is a quick flashy fix. It all looks cool, its fast, and you get to start sparring almost right away so it can be exciting, but it is heavily reliant on athletic ability and strength which to my understanding is not one that wing chun adheres to. while what they teach may work very well for someone who is at the top of his game, it is practically useless to those who are small and light and it should not be. On top of all this they have jumped on the grappling band wagon and so draw people in who are looking for something "more" then wingchun or grappling.

No, the reason WT deals with grappling is because grappling is involved in real fighting, an area semingly neglected by many WC schools. Now, I don't know which 'lineage' you belong to but I am not one to put down other branches. If you don't feel grappling is necessary then by all means don't train it. But don't blame me if you get caught in a clinch or thrown to the ground and don't know what to do.

Yes, WT is marketed very well. I do not agree with all the propaganda nonsence. But I will say that the huge emphasis WT has put towards grappling and anti-grappling is the true meaning of an 'evolution'. Yips Man's Wing Chun was designed for dealing with mainly standup Kung-Fu styles. In the West, wrestling is one of the most effective and widely used styles. If you only learn how to deal with dragon style and hung gar kung-fu, you are not practicing the essence of wing chun and are misleading yourself.

[red5angel]

Ultimate Fighter, I never said grappling experience wasnt necessary, just that it is over rated. Its not a hole that needs to be filled so much as an understanding that needs to be reached. Wing chun has the answers, a person just has to be patient and diligent in its study and those answers will come. WT's blending of grappling and wing chun is grossly over advertised. I have seen very few videos or demos where some WT guy doesn't go to the ground. My problem isnt with the system they teach in and of itself, as I stated it works for some very well, just dont advertise that your art can do things it cannot, grappling is almost dependant on being applied by a larger or atleast stronger person to work. How do you teach this stuff to those smaller people who come to WT claims that wing chun or in their case wing tsun works well for smaller people?
As for evolution, well, all arts evolve, some just change completely.

[AndrewS]

Red,

the extent of your ignorance is amazing.

'Going to the ground'- controlling a single person and dropping them to the floor while striking, remaining in a position where one can rapidly stand? Which tapes are you talking about? Sifu Emin's "Realistic Self-Defense"? KK's demo with the Bulgarian olympic wrestling coach? What? Demo's?

Believe it or not, you may need to kneel on someone to control them or finish them on occasion.

As to grappling favoring strength and size- um- *fighting* favors strength and size. Skill can make up for a lot, but mass adds to your power, makes you harder to move, and helps you absorb a shot. You can argue this as much as you'd care to, but you're arguing with Newton, so I'll just kick back, laugh, and enjoy the show. And if you want to claim that grappling is a strength game, check out Jean-Jaques Machado's showing in the *unlimited* weight class at Abu Dhabi.

Lastly, the technical art of WT is not 'strength-based' in the way you imply. Fighting, on the other hand, requires a degree of strength and conditioning. Sorry if my line views those things as important, just keep doing what you're doing and go hit the san shou ring.

Later,

Andrew