What the hell's happening to MMA?

[dre]

Apo :
"t's called the 'fundamental attribution error.' the tendency to attribute your own actions and thoughts"

How does this apply to me? I ain't out there screaming from the rooftops how I can use Qi to explode my enemies. I only try to observe.

"i suspect that the negative reactions stick in our head more forcefully, so if i go to a new site and post something, two people agree with me and two more tell me i'm retarded, i'm probably going to come away with a negative view of that experience."

This is a good explanation.

"a question of whether you attribute their behavior to circumstances that might be changed"

I don't see anything changes. The status of MMA might go down or up, but I see no light for CMA. It's going down with no real big hopes for the future. If there is change, things will only decline for CMA. Lack of unity, apparent weakness and screcy cripple CMA at many times.

"or they tend to react a given way for a reason. and unless you're willing to look for those reasons, you're not looking carefully enough."

I don't see the reason, that does not mean I have not looked for a reason , do you have a reason?

"probably best to view your experience at that BJJ school as meeting a bunch of trolls. their behavior comes from the same place as troll behavior on the internet. and it's no more reflective of the entirety of MMA than the various kung fu trolls here have been of CMA."

I shudder to think they are all that bad - the fact remains that if I want BJJ style Newaza, I will have to do Judo as there is no other place of that type in the Area. (Unless I somehow get up the money/time to travel to the city to study at the Gracie school. An idea which Merry suggested.

"p.s. i'm a fan of fencing myself. don't have nearly the experience you do, mind you."

Whats your weapon?

Dog -

"dre, I don't think it is really fair to judge every single BJJ school on the basis of one bad experience. I'm sure you could find some pretty screwy TMA schools too... (black dragon fighting society for instance). That doesn't mean they are all bad."

I don't think said that, or that I mean that. My orrigional statement is that this behavior is more prevelent/acceptable. Not that everyone is that way.

" I agree that MMA is badly marketed, but if it leads to fighters actually making a little bit of money after they pay their medical bills and gym fees it can't be all bad. "

Maybe they are focusing on the wrong markets - the US maybe isn't ready for it, Asia might be more welcoming.

"bashing and politics were common"

Weak organization and bashing are two different things. KF in general has very weak governing bodies. Not like WTF for example. Apparently we have opposite expereinces.

[SevenStar]

"I shudder to think they are all that bad - the fact remains that if I want BJJ style Newaza, I will have to do Judo as there is no other place of that type in the Area. (Unless I somehow get up the money/time to travel to the city to study at the Gracie school. An idea which Merry suggested. "

Go for it. You'll learn alot of good stuff there.

"It was more like this : "have you any previous experience?"

"yes, I've done Manis"

"Ha hah ha"

"Fencing as well"

"Ha ha ha x2"

Not really much to argue about or "show"."

okay, let's try this a different way:

It was more like this : "have you any previous experience?"

"yes, I've done Manis"

"Ha hah ha"

"What's funny about training in Mantis?"

"Kung fu? Get real. you can't fight with that"

"Think so? If you've got time, I'd really love to show you the effectiveness of my style."

You don't really have to spar him. Just have him try various techniques, and show him how you deal with them. In turn, have him show you how he deals with certain techniques.

[dre]

"You don't really have to spar him. Just have him try various techniques, and show him how you deal with them. In turn, have him show you how he deals with certain techniques."

Nah, he'd just try to tackle me. Becides, I am also surrounded by equally doubtfull BJJ'ers , none of whom I want to pay attention to me.

Whats done is done anyway. I wonder where the Onion Gis are sold. . .

[SevenStar]

That's exactly what you want - you should be able to take his techniques and render them ineffective. When he tries to double leg you, do what you have to do to stop it. If you can prevent him from taking you down, at least fend off a few attempts, or better yet, throw him in the process - he will have more respect for your style.

you're right though, what's done is done.

[wushu chik]

HONESTLY....Ryu, i love ya, but i could give a flying rats ass about MMA. It's what it is, but it's only that. Again...sorry, but it's not that big of a deal....let's get back to the KUNG FU threads....

And yes, Ryu, i STILL LOVE YA!!!

~Wen~

[apoweyn]

dre,

Originally posted by dre
Apo :
"t's called the 'fundamental attribution error.' the tendency to attribute your own actions and thoughts"

How does this apply to me? I ain't out there screaming from the rooftops how I can use Qi to explode my enemies. I only try to observe.

i don't know that it does, mate. but that's what the theory's called.

but, according to the theory itself, it applies to all of us. not all the time, obviously. it just describes a tendency. think about it like this: i'm fundamentally a good guy (really, ask merryprankster or no_know). but sometimes i walk around this office with a death glare. i know i'm being like that because i'm stressed about my wedding, or a big project, or whatever. so i know i'm not a complete arsehole. anyone that knows me at the office might not know specifically why i'm acting like that, but they know me well enough to know i'm not generally like that. so there must be some circumstance causing it. NOW, the guy from another department who has to come and see me about something is greeted by a frowning, snapping, and otherwise disagreeable ap Oweyn. and he leaves my office thinking, "that guy's kind of an arsehole."

that's the fundamental attribution error. his 'default' reaction was to figure that i'm 'just like that' instead of thinking 'he must be under a lot of stress.'

whether that applies to this situation is purely a judgment call. i don't know. but if it did, their behavior could be attributed to insecurity, lack of experience with 'real' gung fu, peer pressure, camraderie, etc.

the fact is that you experienced this. it was real. so there's no point in saying that it wasn't. or that you're wrong. only that it's not indicative of MMA in general. and you know that already. you've said as much. so i'm not arguing anything with you. just agreeing in a ridiculously long-winded way.

I don't see anything changes. The status of MMA might go down or up, but I see no light for CMA. It's going down with no real big hopes for the future. If there is change, things will only decline for CMA. Lack of unity, apparent weakness and screcy cripple CMA at many times.

well, not training in CMA myself, i can only hope that it's not quite that bleak.

I don't see the reason, that does not mean I have not looked for a reason , do you have a reason?

not a definitive one. ignorance is the most likely candidate. please understand that i'm not suggesting that you just let trash talking roll off of your back. it bothers you. and that colours your view of the group those guys represent. that's perfectly logical. but they were ignorant. you could teach them better if you so chose. or if not them (if they're too ignorant), other MMA'ers more open minded.

I shudder to think they are all that bad - the fact remains that if I want BJJ style Newaza, I will have to do Judo as there is no other place of that type in the Area. (Unless I somehow get up the money/time to travel to the city to study at the Gracie school. An idea which Merry suggested.

trust me, if those guys represented the BJJ to which you have access, i feel for you. that stinks. (not that i'm stuck on BJJ myself, but if you wanted to go there, and they turned out to be a bunch of tools, that stinks.)

as for merryprankster, he's become a good friend of mine since meeting via KFO last year. for whatever it's worth, i'd trust his advice.

"p.s. i'm a fan of fencing myself. don't have nearly the experience you do, mind you."

Whats your weapon?

well, i studied a little fencing in college because i was already into eskrima by then. i knew that the spanish had occupied the philippines for a long time, and that fencing had greatly influenced eskrima ('esgrima' being spanish for fencing). and i was right. the influence was obvious.

i mention all that because i wasn't coming at fencing from a 'art for art's sake' viewpoint. that said, i loved it. great fun. sabre was my favorite simply because it most closely resembled the stick work from eskrima (slashing and thrusting made more of the angles available to me, for both parrying and attacking).

you?


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

wushu chik,

Originally posted by wushu chik
HONESTLY.... i could give a flying rats ass about MMA.

and yet you clicked on a link saying 'what's wrong with MMA?'

huh.

don't you think the issues surrounding MMA bear some relevance on gung fu? perhaps not for you personally, but for the community as a whole?


stuart b.

[dre]

"so i'm not arguing anything with you. just agreeing in a ridiculously long-winded way."

Oh, OK

"well, not training in CMA myself, i can only hope that it's not quite that bleak."

I really find no evidence to supposrt much of any other conclusion. Other than some quick change (which is totally possible) or the appearance of some BL-esque figure.

"ignorance is the most likely candidate"

True dat!

"you?"

Well, I learned thema ll at one timeor another, but it is Epee I liek the best. It demands the most precision with the least rules. No right of way is the rule I like the most Free for all.

[apoweyn]

all targets are open for epee, right? thrusting weapon, but you can even hit the foot if you choose, yeah?

[Braden]

IMHO, foil requires much more precision than epee, being both faster and having a smaller area of attack/defense. Similarly, I think it's the best weapon for people to focus on the attributes specific to fencing.

Epee is actually my least favorite. It always struck me as heavier, less technical foil. Saber I felt was very fun, but wasn't as good at developping fencing attributes. But good fun... for some reason, it's incredibly satisfying to hit a tiny downward stroke to someone's forehead. Like a little snooty british 'you suck.'

Er... apologies to the brits here... you know what I mean.

[rogue]

I think it'd be cool to start selling BadBoy gear for fencers.

[apoweyn]

[laugh]

maybe put the 'two eyes' motif on the bell of the epee. so when you're getting stabbed in the chest, all you see is the big eyes glaring at ya?

[dre]

Apo : "all targets are open for epee, right? thrusting weapon, but you can even hit the foot if you choose, yeah?"

Yes, and anything connected to the body (shoe laces for example). Foot strikes are a common tactic. Why? Becuase it is close.

"maybe put the 'two eyes' motif on the bell of the epee. so when you're getting stabbed in the chest, all you see is the big eyes glaring at you"

My bell gaurd is too beat up , I block with it as a rule. But I am an aggressive player.

Braden : "IMHO, foil requires much more precision than epee, being both faster and having a smaller area of attack/defense."

Foil has rules though, right or way etc. You need to think aboutout those before you make your attacks. I"m not sure that it is "precise" - depends on your definition. Sure, you can hit any target on the body - but so can your opponent. People seem to forget this Foil is epee theory. What is learned there becomes applied in Epee.

"Similarly, I think it's the best weapon for people to focus on the attributes specific to fencing."

I disagree here. If you only see foil you miss slashing techniques, true, which are secondary to thrust, but are also important. Further, since foil is baisically theory (too many rules to be real enough) it is a weapon taught to begginers to train them on the baisics in a very safe way. If you only focus on this, you miss the application of the techs - which is found in Epee/Saber.

"Epee is actually my least favorite. It always struck me as heavier, less technical foil."

Technique is much less obvious. It takes a more experienced eye to spot it. Exaggerated technique found in foil (to show judges etc that a valid move was done) cannot be done in Epee. Wide movments will open up close targets which will get you hit , andd there is no right of way to protect you in Epee. The cardinal point of epee is tight, controlled actions, not necissairily done exactly as the form dictates in foil. The tighter, the faster and the more precise - the better. This does not lend itself to viewability.

However, this does not mean you can't pull off fancy moves. I once pulled off a top arm arrest in tournamnet in front of a crowed of 150+ people. Nice applause I got.

"Saber I felt was very fun, but wasn't as good at developping fencing attributes."

Saber is not for baisic development - that is the provance of foil. Foil is theory - leaning baisic suff - then you learn more in Saber and Epee - but they are developments of that orgional Foil base.
Also, youu need to see a good Saber coach, the will change your mind

[Braden]

Dre

"Foil has rules though, right or way etc. You need to think aboutout those before you make your attacks."

I hope not! You're bound to get tagged pretty easily if you sit there thinking.

"Foil is epee theory. What is learned there becomes applied in Epee."

That's exactly my point. Foil is like concentrated fencing. This is what I meant when I said I felt it focused the most on fencing-specific attributes.

"since foil is baisically theory"

Foil isn't theory. It's swordfighting. In a foil class, you don't sit around reading books, you fight each other with swords.

"too many rules to be real enough"

Epee has too many rules to be real enough as well. None of the fencing styles even begin to approximate a real encounter. So why would you train fencing for self-defense? For some of the specific attributes it builds. With that in mind, see above.

"it is a weapon taught to begginers"

True. Although I'm not sure why this would be evidence against it's technical precision.

"to train them on the baisics"

Yes, to train them in the specific skills they need to succeed in fencing, in the most effiecient manner possible. Which is exactly what I said.

"in a very safe way"

Foil isn't significantly safer than epee or saber. All of them are very safe.

"If you only focus on this, you miss the application of the techs - which is found in Epee/Saber."

The application of the techniques? This isn't formwork. I have faith in just about anyone's ability to figure out what the application of thrusting a sword through someone's liver is. Moreover, your above discussion of 'shoelaces' being an excellent epee target pretty effectively argues against this point.

"Technique is much less obvious. It takes a more experienced eye to spot it."

Come on. Could have just said you disagreed.

"Exaggerated technique found in foil (to show judges etc that a valid move was done) cannot be done in Epee..."

I'm not sure who taught you foil fencing. Presumably someone that wanted to rush you through it to get you working on epee, since it's alot more popular both generally and in competition circuits (ie. sporting and money concerns). But the foil can, quite obviously, move quicker than the epee can. This makes the necessity for precise, tight actions (not to mention a proper guard posture) much greater than in epee. You've argued quite well as to why emphasis on this is important. The restricted target zones further increase the importance of defensive posture; something whose utility greatly decreases when you have to worry about people scoring on you with (utterly unrealistics) strikes to your clothes and far extremities.

"Also, youu need to see a good Saber coach, the will change your mind"

Change my mind about it being fun?

[dre]

"I hope not! You're bound to get tagged pretty easily if you sit there thinking."

That dosen't really matter if you do the correct action, and thereby gain right of way, and therefore the touch. The almighty Perry-reposte can be pretty slow in foil and still get the point.

Anyway, try Epee or Saber - the way of going about it is entirely different, you will lose hits that you thought you had, due to different rules. Hitting first begins to matter in Saber then is all that matters in Epee.

"That's exactly my point. Foil is like concentrated fencing. This is what I meant when I said I felt it focused the most on fencing-specific attributes. "

I agree that it is the Basics - I don't know if I agree with concentraited, since it implies that the other two are somwhat more soft or whatever. Foil has all the attributes of Fencing that the public expects it to have - in this way you can say "concentraited".

"Foil isn't theory. It's swordfighting. In a foil class, you don't sit around reading books, you fight each other with swords."

Foil is moving theory. THe fact that there are right of way rules that give the point to the person who hit second a good part of the time, limited target and very demanding form make it theory.

"Epee has too many rules to be real enough as well."

Those rules are mostly in your own interest - for example - you can't tackle anybody. Why would you want to though? You'd get stabbed the minute you tried. What "rules" are these that epee has? I remeber being bell punched as a 13 yo kid in a tournament.

"None of the fencing styles even begin to approximate a real encounter. So why would you train fencing for self-defense? For some of the specific attributes it builds. With that in mind, see above. "

I didn't train it for SD. But I have used it real life once for SD. That made me realize that it isn't worthless in that context.

"Foil isn't significantly safer than epee or saber. All of them are very safe. "

How much does a foil weigh next to an epee? They are all pretty safe, true, but epee hits much harder.

"The application of the techniques? This isn't formwork."

It is. No difference between this and three legged Cat Kungfu or Kaiukata- kai Karate. There is a right and wrong way to do things.

Plus - with only foil , you are missing the whole slashing thing.

"I have faith in just about anyone's ability to figure out what the application of thrusting a sword through someone's liver is"

lol! I've met ***totally*** hopess cases. Some people just suck at fencing, you are quite wrong here. I remember someone who could never do the footwork and was always falling down. . .

"But the foil can, quite obviously, move quicker than the epee can."

Yes. Epee is much larger and heavier.

"This makes the necessity for precise, tight actions (not to mention a proper guard posture) much greater than in epee."

This is bull. Why? becuase it's small? Thats not a reason. I could arge the same saying the epee target is whole body while foil is only chest. No - you don't need (but shoudl have) tight actions in foil becuase if you know how to gain right of way it is all you need. Right of way is GOD in foil. Please him and he will shower you with foil medals.

Have you ever seen an epee match (good)? They square off and evaluate eachother - postioning is very important. Actions tend to be shorter, since the hit is more as a result og a gaurd weakness than a mistake in moves. Blocks are tight and involve the wrist more than anything, since the whoel body is target you can't risk opening up lines. However this concern is much lower in Foil , since those other lines don't exist and you will gain right of way by doing a blocking action. (perry-riposte)

"Change my mind about it being fun?"

No , about it teaching you little.

"The restricted target zones further increase the importance of defensive posture"

I could say the unrestricted target zone totally necciessitate defence in Epee , since an attack can be going Anywhere.

"something whose utility greatly decreases when you have to worry about people scoring on you with (utterly unrealistics)
strikes to your clothes and far extremities."

I've only seen that tried/worked once - thats why I commented on it. Very much an oddity - but somthing the rules allow for. Also, most people will never try it, since it will be counted as a floor hit 99% of the time, only on a Metal grounded strip (which costs $$$$) could a hit like that be counted. So that is more anecdotal than anythign else- it does not reflect any normal Epee hit.