What the hell's happening to MMA?

[Merryprankster]

so why do they deviate into the world of MMA maybe as strong as they foundation is in one art, it could prehaps be that they initialyy started out in mediocre art?

I hardly consider BJJ or wrestling or Judo to be mediocre. Muay Thai/kickboxing (not american style....)certainly isn't either, and this is where you get most of your fighters.

Now, why do they go to MMA instead of staying in "x?" I dunno... why do some people choose to be nurses and others chefs? I took one look at it and thought NEAT! Then I found somewhere to train

BJJ and MMA have always been close cousins so you actually get some of the very best in the world at BJJ doing both. They win and lose some just like others. Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, and Dan Severn were all very good wrestlers--international caliber--not necessarily international champions, but they have international experience. Matt Lindland took the silver in Greco-Roman wrestling in Sydney, Randy Couture was one of USA's very best Greco guys....
But there's not much money in it, and maybe they're looking for something new to play--new ways to use the skills they learned. Maurice Smith was an excellent K-1 fighter having fought some of the very best competition, and maybe he was looking for new ways to use the skills he learned too. I would call that exploration and "unfolding," of the highest order--"how can I use my skills in an unfamiliar venue?" Some people, like Royce Alger, can't make the transition. Some people, like Alexander Karelin, don't want to (man, would I PAY to see THAT though!)

I will say that the reason you haven't seen the very best boxers is money. Why do MMA if I can make so much more boxing, if I'm good at it?

As with any art--traditional or not--there is no end point. It's just different. My boxing coach learned to box. Then he competed for awhile, now, at late 50's early 60's something, he's teaching boxing, and I'll bet learning more and more about how to box as he's doing it. I know I've learned more about wrestling in the past 3 years than I knew when I was wrestling competitively. Am I competing in wrestling? No--but through the process of teaching some fo the things I know I've learned an awful lot about it.

Exploration and open-endedness isn't unique to anything, but has a great deal more to do with personality than an art.

I don't think your "unfolding structure," model applies beyond an individual basis. If the person can't explore new applications or refine old ones or come to a better understanding of things out of having reached a "goal," and lapsing into disinterest, that's hardly the fault of the art, or even of the coach/teacher.

[apoweyn]

silumkid,

Originally posted by Silumkid
Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but what do you mean by this question? UFC has always been full of low-lifes and liars and braggarts.

it does sound harsh, yeah. but it's an opinion. that's fine.

that said, martial arts in general have always been filled with low lifes, braggarts, and liars. we all know that. from the moment anyone figured out that there was money to be made, acclaim to be had, and rubes to be taken advantage of, these sorts of people were an inevitability. but, frankly, while there are some unsavoury characters in the octagon, i'd rather have them there, where the truth of the matter is going to come out, like it or not.

again, i think we're falling on that "that's not us, it's them" argument. point at a low life in CMA and he's 'not a representative of real kung fu.' point at one in MMA and he becomes an icon of the whole system.

Kimo...claimed to have all sorts of training, then was later revealed to be nothing more than "basically a big football player with a gimmick"...pretty WWE'ish.

yep. and refresh my memory. what happened to kimo? he lost to royce gracie (a far smaller and less WWE'ish fellow). then there's kimo's teacher, joe son. an equally flamboyant competitor (which worked, given the amount of film work he's gotten). and what happened to him? one trip into the octagon, eight punches in the nuts, and never seen again in that venue.

see a pattern?

Tank Abbott...yeah, there was a class individual.

can't argue with you there. don't like tank abbott. enjoy seeing him get beaten by more skilled and well-mannered competitors. tank abbott would be a sociopath regardless of where he is. he's not a product nor a representative of MMA. he's one aspect of MMA, just as he's one aspect of modern society. at least UFC brings him into direct competition with people that are his match or better. the venue doesn't allow him to be the thug he'd like to be, because he's fighting people who are too good to be... thugged.

That three tooth biker dude that competed once that I know of and did that ridiculous somersault landing flat on his back.

howard something. won one match with a well executed punch against a muay thai guy. lost the only other match i've seen him in. again, the showboats are filtered out. or defeated consistently. either way, you're hardly rewarded for style over substance.

Steve what'shisname...the "Ninja Cop" who won the same as event as above mentioned biker boy.

and what, precisely, was low-life, braggart, or liar about steve jennum? or howard?

kimo's a bit of a goof. abbott's the only genuine low life so far.

That fat black fella who claimed to be a sumo champion...of where? His neighborhood?

emmanuel yarborough. and, to my knowledge, he is an accomplished sumotori. have you done any research on sumo before deriding his background?

The entire "undefeated, unbeatable" Gracie clan...call it semantics, call it whatever you want, but a loss is a loss and Poppa Helio is NOT undefeated. So that makes them braggarts and liars.

granted, i have a problem with this too. if you lost, you lost. i find the gracie presentation a bit much. but, again, MMA is bigger than the gracies. much bigger.

can you cite examples of sakuraba talking crap?

what about the shamrocks? frank has done so on occassion. but i think he grew into it a bit. in his later performances, he's still got the confidence you'd expect from a fighter who excels. but he's also a little more realistic about his own limitations, etc. that's the thing about competitions like UFC. talk as much crap as you want, but at some point, reality is going to set in. someone's going to beat you.

not 'reality' in the bigger sense. just the understanding that you're not the best. you won a bout. no more, no less. the more mature MMA'ers (and there are many) understand that.

I'm really not trying to sound insulting here...I respect what these guys are willing to do to themselves to prove whatever it is they feel they need to prove. I just don't think we should try to romanticize it into something it isn't.

no, well, we'd be hard pushed to romanticize the shamrocks, right? a guy runs a home for boys, adopts two of them, and they grow up to become accomplished athletes who sing their father's praises up and down for what he did for them. what a bunch of low lifes.

get my point? this venue, like any other, attracts a spectrum of people. some of them, i'd happily hang out with on a saturday night (as i have done with merryprankster, the only MMA'er i know personally). others, i'd like to see tazered into submission and shipped into outer space (as with merry... er, no sorry).




stuart b.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
so why do they deviate into the world of MMA maybe as strong as they foundation is in one art, it could prehaps be that they initialyy started out in mediocre art?

good god. yeah, that must be it. they didn't make the same choices as us. so clearly, they must have been mistaken in the first place. and then they continue to make different choices than us. it's like they're fundamentally flawed or something. why can't they see that if they just did what we do, everything would be fine?!

what is the problem here? do you have an ethical problem with a person who fights for entertainment? i can't argue with that. that's your moral judgment to make. but that's not what you're doing. you're judging these people because they don't do your art. or some other art that meets with your approval.

again, your opinion. and you have every right to it.

Now for one I do not consider most traditional arts as being insubstantial , the main probelm is that someone cleaves to that art for 8 years or so never gets beyond an inetmediate level and then gets bored and goes off onto something else. Most tradiditional arts do have an end point. So saying that someone has reach the finnishing line of having a black belt, intrinsically, is totally inconsequential. Does this mean they only have a finite amount of knowledge now left for them to encircel their entire art? No it usually means that they have more than ever before to learn as they open onto another level. Its this structure of unfolding which is not present in MMA. However it is also this (as stated above) scenario which leads amny into MMA too.

true. true. it's the same with physics really. in college, i studied physics so intently that the need to read shakespeare, study lao tzu, or play volleyball all kind of evaporated. i mean, i was only in college for four years. (okay, four and a half) there's so much more to be found in physics. so why study anything else? because i was bored with physics? not me, man. not ever.

but education doesn't work like that, does it. in school, we're encouraged to become well rounded. why? logic dictates that if we want to be good at physics, our entire curriculum should be focused on physics. why have liberal arts requirements? why phys ed? why electives, for that matter? surely any rational human being would only select the courses that expanded their knowledge of physics.

but we don't. because not all of life is physics. and because part of educating yourself is making choices. some of those choices will be mistakes for you. (early american poets?! gah!) but you learn from the process.

in the classroom, we encourage students to ask questions, go out and find their own answers, and become a proactive participant in their own education. in martial arts, we want to chalk it up to a short attention span, an insufficient primary art, or some other personal flaw. why? why is that necessary?


stuart b.

[The Willow Sword]

This WHOLE thread is devoid of content,,,im just going with the flow.
OH and in case you did not catch what DILLIGAF means.


Look it up.

MRTWS

[Suntzu]

the UFC fighters are products like cereal u buy on the shelf… the braggin and showboatin get u noticed like the Trix rabbit… and if you are good and a shiny person more promoters will book you and you get paid more… the 13-25 y.o.'s want to see it, will pay to see it and the cycle starts all over again... they're just trying to eat... that's the sports entertainment business for you... flash sells... see some remember the name of some flashy losers* just because they was flashy... BAM... product sold...

*I say losers because they lost… but atleast they got in the ring… how many people have the balls to put there training and body out there like that????

[Merryprankster]

I see that your mouth got ahead of your brain again willow.

I dunno about that Sun Tzu. EVERYBODY likes Randy Couture, and he's a regular nice guy without all the flash. I don't know if you could put that shiny head on a Wheaties box though

[apoweyn]

willow sword,

another laser beam insight from the guy who NEARLY outsmarted one of my socks.

i could have sworn you used to actually post content to this forum.


stuart b.

[The Willow Sword]

apoweyn: yeah i know ,,i know its disturbing,,,,,"sigh" well i guess when there is a NEED for me to put forth some "content" i will.

i like to joke i like to be sarcastic and i like to be blunt and sharp at times.

i will let you in on a little secret Apoweyn. i could post alot more insight and content if there were individuals other than "kids" and "trolls" here. i have seen this forum go down the Sh!t can in content. so now i treat it as it apparently wants to be treated ,, like a child or a troll.

Try going to the fighters chat sometime and i would love to have decent discussions with people.
sometimes its better to chat rather than to post.


oh and merry prankster:


MRTWS

[Merryprankster]

Ah yes. No gatekeeper at the front door. It just dribbles out like a hot vinadloo the next day. Nice that.

[Suntzu]

MP - but that's one in a million… plus he's a GOOD fighter… well I would guess, I really don’t get down with UFC like that… but basically the UFC is character dirven just like WWE or whatever its called this week… that's why the XFL went to hell… the players just wanted to play instead of becoming HE HATE ME( who dropped a gatda mn TD in Philly... i could kick his bit(h azs )... the Girls Gone Wild people wanna sponsor the Dude Gone Wild... the ring girls are gonna wear Cage Rage or Tapout shirts, not GAP ( for every generation )... just wait until they get commercial deals... i doubt they'll be pitchn 1-800-Flowers... "Call this # now and order Frank Shamrock's 'Get 4 inches faster..."

[Merryprankster]

Good point Sun.

Here's a better question--is marketing bad? I personally don't think this marketing is worse than that of boxing. Or really even pride. Those guys like their characters. I think that it's just that prefight posturing is more accepted as part of a game over there...

[apoweyn]

sun tzu,

true, but the bidness doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of the competitor. look at someone like john mcenroe (sp?). the media played him up to always have a short fuse and an intense, argumentative attitude.

is that true of mcenroe? sure, to a degree, i expect it is. but does he start throwing plates around the kitchen when they're out of parmesan cheese? nah, i doubt it. the media knows that intensity sells, so they'll play up the most obvious attributes of a fighter.

i know i'm not telling you anything you don't already know, mind you. i think it's important, though, to draw a distinction between the individuals competing and the media that surrounds them.


stuart b.

[Suntzu]

No it's not bad… it pays for there training, the ho's like em and wanna be's treat 'em like gods and wish to be them… hell, if adult entertainment inc wantsto pay me to train, wear there stuff and take pics with there stars… fu(kin right… I forgot who started this thread... but they was upset because of WHO was doing the marketing... well dic pumps and half naked women comes with the territory...

[Merryprankster]

Willow, You've been right all the time. You've been handling my disrespectful posts in rather urbane manner, all things considered, and I should probably really rethink my reasons for training.

[Suntzu]

apo - I'm not arguing if there character reflects them… I'm saying the product dictates the character… the product is mean, swollen, screwface fighters… who watches them??? Other fighters, wanna be's and groupies… when u sell a magazine to fighters, wannabe's and groupies, what are they gonna buy??? EAS, Tapout t-shirts( modeled by some braod in a thong ) and a too small Tapout shirt that the groupie is gonna wear to the next event... i guess i should've went off topic with everyone else